Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes

Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (Full Version)

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GoTraurig -> Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/23/2011 9:33:16 PM)
Intro: Ok, so either I'm incredibly unlucky, doing something very wrong, or I am experiencing a bug. I have been using a hotseat game to experiment a bit before starting my PBEM Scenario 2 game as Japan with the unofficial beta. The Problem Over the last few days I have done about 15 Pearl Harbor strikes; with several unusual results: My most effective strike sank two BBs and had one more significantly damaged. I'd estimate about six of the strikes sank a BB, with the rest not sinking any. Generally there's a couple of BBs with a damage in the low 60's, but the rest would repair up within 120 days. When I look at the Kate torpedo expenditure for the entire KB it's always between 0 and 54 with 18 and 27 predominant. In my last three attempts I've only sunk a DM, so I got frustrated and came here asking for help. While I understand that two BBs sunk is roughly historical, I barely met that standard in one out of fifteen attempts - something's not right. My Setup: Changes from default for KB (for testing I only modify the one tf's orders): I turn remain on station on. I replace the captains of Shokaku and Soryu with ones that have good air skill. I put all the zeroes on airfield attack - I've tried it strafing from 100 and bombing from 10k feet. This leaves Vals port striking from 10k feet (I know they supposedly can bomb the airfield without much strike power reduction vs the BBs, but I'm desperate to do anything to the US fleet right now) and Kates bombing the port from 9k feet. Goals: Once I get verification that I'm setting the strike up adequately, I'll post up some combat results.

Erkki -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/23/2011 9:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoTraurig Intro: Ok, so either I'm incredibly unlucky, doing something very wrong, or I am experiencing a bug. I have been using a hotseat game to experiment a bit before starting my PBEM Scenario 2 game as Japan with the unofficial beta. The Problem Over the last few days I have done about 15 Pearl Harbor strikes; with several unusual results: My most effective strike sank two BBs and had one more significantly damaged. I'd estimate about six of the strikes sank a BB, with the rest not sinking any. Generally there's a couple of BBs with a damage in the low 60's, but the rest would repair up within 120 days. When I look at the Kate torpedo expenditure for the entire KB it's always between 0 and 54 with 18 and 27 predominant. In my last three attempts I've only sunk a DM, so I got frustrated and came here asking for help. While I understand that two BBs sunk is roughly historical, I barely met that standard in one out of fifteen attempts - something's not right. My Setup: Changes from default for KB (for testing I only modify the one tf's orders): I turn remain on station on. I replace the captains of Shokaku and Soryu with ones that have good air skill. I put all the zeroes on airfield attack - I've tried it strafing from 100 and bombing from 10k feet. This leaves Vals port striking from 10k feet (I know they supposedly can bomb the airfield without much strike power reduction vs the BBs, but I'm desperate to do anything to the US fleet right now) and Kates bombing the port from 9k feet. Goals: Once I get verification that I'm setting the strike up adequately, I'll post up some combat results. In my latest PBEM (AAR on these forums) I struck PH for 3 days and failed to sink a single ship. Thats right. OK maybe DD McDonough. [:D]The first day only half of the torpedo bombers flew (distance 3 hex). Out of the 6 x 3 minus 3 = 15 torpedo bomber unit sorties flown only 5 used torpedoes. Dig that. [;)] EDIT: I also lost nearly 120 planes and pilots against perhaps 80 Allied. Their losses would have been smaller had they not tried piecemeal conga-line attacking the KB.

khyberbill -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/23/2011 10:36:31 PM)
quote: I also lost nearly 120 planes and pilots against perhaps 80 Allied. Their losses would have been smaller had they not tried piecemeal conga-line attacking the KB. You probably lost most of those on the 2nd and 3rd days. Several postings have indicated that after the first strike, the AA gets very effective.

khyberbill -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/23/2011 10:38:08 PM)
quote: I'd estimate about six of the strikes sank a BB, with the rest not sinking any. In my PBEM with John3 with the Reluctant Admiral Mod, not a single BB was sunk and John3 is a very experienced player. I think in 7 or 8 PBEMs I have only lost one or two BB's the first day.

LoBaron -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 6:22:40 AM)
Looks good. Wasn´t AAA increased in strenght over the betas? This could lead to worse results as compared to before beta if planes are hit prior to bomb release. Try to up the altitude a bit, say 12-14k and look how many 800kg/Torp hits you score on the big ships. Before I forget: There were "only" 2 BBs lost at PH. So your best result is in accordance to reality - at least considering what the term "ships sunk" on game terms. [;)]

Erkki -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 7:28:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: khyberbill quote: I also lost nearly 120 planes and pilots against perhaps 80 Allied. Their losses would have been smaller had they not tried piecemeal conga-line attacking the KB. You probably lost most of those on the 2nd and 3rd days. Several postings have indicated that after the first strike, the AA gets very effective. 60 lost on day 1, of 43 were Zeroes. Every each Zero pilot was also KIA or MIA. They had the standard mission of strafing the airfields... However that was DaBigBabes in latest beta and not the official latest official and scen 1.

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 9:18:42 AM)
Erkki and khyberbill: While it is somewhat comforting to hear that others are experiencing poor strikes, only one attack, out of the fifteen or so I performed, sank two BBs. The rest were significantly weaker than the average results I'm seeing from AARs and even what was historical. My understanding is that there are many random factors that go into determining whether the Kates are equipped with torpedoes, how many strike aircraft fly, the enemy flak effectiveness, and the Kate attack accuracy (there probably are several factors here I'm missing as well). The result of these factors should have the attacks range from the extremes of no initial strike at all to every battleship getting sunk at Pearl Harbor in the first strike. I don't claim to know what the distribution of the probabilities of each is, but my understanding is that the results should average out to roughly what was historical in game terms - two BBs sunk and quite a few damaged. Thus, I'm quite upset when only one of 15 strikes is even close to the average I'm seeing for others.

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 9:30:55 AM)
LoBaron: I don't know whether the AAA strength was increased, but that would normally be a reasonable explanation. However, Bandkanon, my prospective opponent, with the same version as me, did three tests with exactly the same settings (he was eager for me to get the PBEM started). Two of his strikes sank two BBs along with significant damage to the others (a suitable and roughly historical result) while the third completely decimated BB row, 5 sunk and two in danger of sinking. He is confident that I'm just unlucky or being whiny. I'll increase the altitude of the Kates and Vals and report the results back. Additionally I'll generate some results using my initial settings. I guess the best result would be that my strikes magically start working normally and my earlier streak will be just chalked up to extreme bad luck.

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 10:32:27 AM)
Results of first three tests with Kates and Vals at 12k feet (Note that I'm not cherry picking these): Test 1: Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 98 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 36 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 54 B5N2 Kate x 72 D3A1 Val x 126 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 15 damaged A6M2 Zero: 7 destroyed by flak B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 3 damaged D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed, 32 damaged P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed on ground PBY-5 Catalina: 119 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 6 destroyed on ground B-17D Fortress: 25 damaged B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground C-33: 2 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 25 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed on ground B-17E Fortress: 12 damaged B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground P-36A Mohawk: 17 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 2 destroyed on ground O-47A: 9 damaged O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground B-18A Bolo: 31 damaged B-18A Bolo: 1 destroyed on ground A-20A Havoc: 10 damaged A-20A Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground R3D-2: 1 damaged R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground F4F-3 Wildcat: 5 damaged Allied Ships DD Helm, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk BB Nevada, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage DMS Perry, Bomb hits 1, on fire AV Wright, Torpedo hits 1 BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires BB California, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, on fire BB Maryland, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage BB Arizona, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage DMS Wasmuth, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DM Ramsay, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CL Phoenix, Torpedo hits 1 AV Tangier, Bomb hits 1 DD Reid, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CM Oglala, Bomb hits 1, on fire CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1 DM Sicard, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk Allied ground losses: 29 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 5 Airbase hits 32 Airbase supply hits 2 Runway hits 66 Port hits 17 Port fuel hits 1 Port supply hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 24 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 12000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb CAP engaged: 18th PG/6th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 10000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes Training flight from 18th PG/6th PS has been caught up in attack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BB Maryland sank after this attack. 54 torps were used. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test 2: Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 114 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 42 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 90 B5N2 Kate x 72 D3A1 Val x 126 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 21 damaged A6M2 Zero: 10 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 1 damaged D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses P-36A Mohawk: 5 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 2 destroyed on ground PBY-5 Catalina: 144 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 7 destroyed on ground B-17E Fortress: 12 damaged B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground P-40B Warhawk: 46 damaged P-40B Warhawk: 3 destroyed on ground B-17D Fortress: 20 damaged B-17D Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground B-18A Bolo: 34 damaged B-18A Bolo: 2 destroyed on ground F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 damaged F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed on ground A-20A Havoc: 32 damaged A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground SBD-1 Dauntless: 33 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 3 destroyed on ground O-47A: 9 damaged O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground R3D-2: 2 damaged C-33: 4 damaged Allied Ships DMS Trevor, Bomb hits 1 BB Nevada, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage BB California, Bomb hits 5, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 6, on fire BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 5, on fire BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4 BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 4, on fire PG Sacramento, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Patterson, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Jarvis, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires AD Rigel, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1 BB Maryland, Bomb hits 1 DM Tracy, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk Allied ground losses: 41 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 14 Airbase hits 40 Airbase supply hits 5 Runway hits 88 Port hits 13 Port fuel hits 1 Port supply hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 12000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 15 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 14 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 12000 feet City Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 16 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 12000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 15 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 18 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 13 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 12000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No torpedoes were equiped. Only 1 BB has any significant damage. Also funny to note that dauntlesses inflicted 2 sys damage and broke 4 AA guns with a strike on CV Kaga because the airfield wasnt closed down. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test 3: Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 109 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 40 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 54 B5N2 Kate x 72 D3A1 Val x 126 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 18 damaged A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed by flak B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed, 43 damaged P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed on ground B-18A Bolo: 27 damaged B-18A Bolo: 2 destroyed on ground PBY-5 Catalina: 81 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 4 destroyed on ground B-17D Fortress: 29 damaged B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground A-20A Havoc: 10 damaged A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 damaged F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed on ground SBD-1 Dauntless: 32 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 1 destroyed on ground P-36A Mohawk: 16 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed on ground B-17E Fortress: 11 damaged O-47A: 6 damaged R3D-2: 1 damaged R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground C-33: 2 damaged OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed Allied Ships BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk BB California, Bomb hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage BB Maryland, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires DD Case, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 3 BB Arizona, Bomb hits 4, on fire SS Narwhal, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires AO Ramapo, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 6, on fire BB Nevada, Bomb hits 2, on fire DD Schley, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires AM Bobolink, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1, on fire xAK Laida, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD MacDonough, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires AV Wright, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Selfridge, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage Allied ground losses: 11 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 10 Airbase hits 32 Airbase supply hits 1 Runway hits 62 Port hits 20 Port fuel hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 12000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 13 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 12000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 17 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 19 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb CAP engaged: 18th PG/19th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 10000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes Training flight from 18th PG/19th PS has been caught up in attack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18 torpedoes used. BB Oklahoma sunk. Not much damage to BBs otherwise. Uploading images? I have screenshots of the damage to the BBs saved in paint as a .png file, but I don't know how to upload images here.

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 11:59:54 AM)
Airstrikes at default altitudes: Zeroes at 100ft, Kates at 9k ft, and Vals at 10k ft. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test 1: Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 44 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 54 B5N2 Kate x 72 D3A1 Val x 126 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 17 damaged A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed by flak B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 4 damaged D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses B-17E Fortress: 8 damaged B-18A Bolo: 30 damaged B-18A Bolo: 4 destroyed on ground PBY-5 Catalina: 76 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 5 destroyed on ground P-40B Warhawk: 43 damaged P-40B Warhawk: 5 destroyed on ground B-17D Fortress: 19 damaged B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground A-20A Havoc: 8 damaged A-20A Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground O-47A: 9 damaged O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground SBD-1 Dauntless: 26 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed on ground R3D-2: 1 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 15 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed on ground F4F-3 Wildcat: 5 damaged C-33: 1 damaged Allied Ships BB Arizona, Bomb hits 7, on fire BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 9 BB Nevada, Bomb hits 5, on fire BB Maryland, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires BB California, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage CL Detroit, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1 SS Dolphin, Bomb hits 1 CL Helena, Bomb hits 1 DD Downes, Bomb hits 1, on fire Allied ground losses: 32 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 12 Airbase hits 23 Airbase supply hits 3 Runway hits 63 Port hits 13 Port supply hits 4 Aircraft Attacking: 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 15 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27 Torpedoes used. No BBs sunk. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test 2: Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 28 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 54 B5N2 Kate x 72 D3A1 Val x 126 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 17 damaged A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed by flak B5N2 Kate: 4 damaged D3A1 Val: 4 damaged Allied aircraft losses P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed, 42 damaged P-40B Warhawk: 3 destroyed on ground B-17E Fortress: 9 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 82 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 4 destroyed on ground B-17D Fortress: 35 damaged B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground B-18A Bolo: 24 damaged B-18A Bolo: 1 destroyed on ground R3D-2: 2 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 7 damaged A-20A Havoc: 13 damaged A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground C-33: 4 damaged C-33: 1 destroyed on ground F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 13 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed on ground O-47A: 6 damaged OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 2 destroyed Allied Ships BB California, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage BB Arizona, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk BB Nevada, Torpedo hits 3, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage BB Maryland, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires DD Bagley, Bomb hits 1, on fire CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1, on fire CM Oglala, Torpedo hits 1 CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1 PT-27, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk AE Mauna Loa, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CL Raleigh, Torpedo hits 1 AM Tern, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1 CL Helena, Torpedo hits 1 xAK Laida, Bomb hits 1 Allied ground losses: 32 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 4 Airbase hits 25 Airbase supply hits 2 Runway hits 76 Port hits 16 Port fuel hits 2 Port supply hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 15 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb CAP engaged: 18th PG/19th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 10000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes Training flight from 18th PG/19th PS has been caught up in attack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The first good result from my tests. 2 BB sunk with all but one with significant damage. 72 torps used. A minisub got a torp hit on Tennessee, but still a very good result. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test 3: Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 104 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 38 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 90 B5N2 Kate x 72 D3A1 Val x 126 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 11 damaged A6M2 Zero: 11 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 3 damaged Allied aircraft losses C-33: 2 damaged B-18A Bolo: 42 damaged B-18A Bolo: 3 destroyed on ground P-40B Warhawk: 45 damaged P-40B Warhawk: 5 destroyed on ground A-20A Havoc: 19 damaged A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground B-17D Fortress: 24 damaged B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground PBY-5 Catalina: 104 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 5 destroyed on ground SBD-1 Dauntless: 30 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed on ground O-47A: 9 damaged O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground B-17E Fortress: 16 damaged B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground P-36A Mohawk: 7 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 3 destroyed on ground F4F-3 Wildcat: 8 damaged F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed on ground R3D-2: 1 damaged R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground Allied Ships BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 1 DD Ralph Talbot, Bomb hits 1, on fire BB California, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, on fire BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Maryland, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1 CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2 BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage DD Dale, Bomb hits 1, on fire DM Preble, Bomb hits 1 CL Detroit, Torpedo hits 1 BB Nevada, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 1, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DMS Trevor, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires PC Reliance, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk Allied ground losses: 41 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 8 Airbase hits 38 Airbase supply hits 7 Runway hits 87 Port hits 16 Port fuel hits 1 Port supply hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 16 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 13 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 14 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet City Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 15 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 17 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 13 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 14 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No BBs sunk - one is in sinking condition. Two BBs got hit by midget sub torps also. 45 torps used by KB.

ny59giants -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 1:15:55 PM)
Check the setting on each of your CVs for your Kates. Each of your attacks shows only 72 Kates. KB - Akagi, Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku (27 x 4 = 108) & Hiryu and Soryu (18 x 2 = 36). Total = 144 Only half are being used for Port attack. Why??

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 3:44:29 PM)
Ok, I'd realized my strike force was weaker than it should be, but I didn't notice how consistent it was. Only 72 out of 144 Kates flying pretty much explains my results and the low torpedo usage. My zeroes sometimes don't go at full strength either, but that's not too big of a deal. ny59giants: After reading your message I tried three more attempts - double checking the settings of each of the Kate groups. Twice I still only got 72 Kates. One time I had 117 fly. Now I'm pretty confident that my settings were correct on my previous tests, but this is interesting. At first I thought it might have something to do with the fact that, by default, the Kates on the Shokaku and the Zuikaku are set to airfield attack - but even assuming those don't fly, the strikes should have had 90 Kates, so I can't explain it. I'm pretty confident that every single Kate group was set to Port attack with target Pearl Harbor at 9k feet. Folks, now that I think we've identified the problem, any ideas on how to fix it or why it's happening?

Lanconic -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/24/2011 8:23:44 PM)
It isnt just Pearl. Same thing happens at Manila. I got better results switching to bombs

crsutton -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 4:53:16 AM)
I would not place too much effort in worrying about it. It is a nice plum to knock off half a dozen BBs at Pearl on the first day. However, it has little impact on the game. The old American BBs are useful at times but are not what wins the war for the Allied player or loses it for that matter. Go ahead and start you game. What you are worried about is really insignificant, and you are going to have a lot of fun regardless of the results.

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 5:06:11 AM)
crsutton: While I agree that the results of the strike are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, my main concern is getting KB to perform strikes properly. KB is, of course, one of Japan's most important strategic assets - being unable to regularly launch more than half the Kates on a strike significantly dampens the offensive strength of the attack. While the initial PH strike might not be game deciding, it's quite possible that a CV battle in mid-1943 could be.

LoBaron -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 5:15:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoTraurig Ok, I'd realized my strike force was weaker than it should be, but I didn't notice how consistent it was. Only 72 out of 144 Kates flying pretty much explains my results and the low torpedo usage. My zeroes sometimes don't go at full strength either, but that's not too big of a deal. ny59giants: After reading your message I tried three more attempts - double checking the settings of each of the Kate groups. Twice I still only got 72 Kates. One time I had 117 fly. Now I'm pretty confident that my settings were correct on my previous tests, but this is interesting. At first I thought it might have something to do with the fact that, by default, the Kates on the Shokaku and the Zuikaku are set to airfield attack - but even assuming those don't fly, the strikes should have had 90 Kates, so I can't explain it. I'm pretty confident that every single Kate group was set to Port attack with target Pearl Harbor at 9k feet. Folks, now that I think we've identified the problem, any ideas on how to fix it or why it's happening? This line may solve the riddle. When you change mission (e.g. from AF attack to Port attack), any preset target gets lost. Is it possible that you switched the squads to port attack but forgot to reselect PH as target? (the target selection should read "commanders decision" in that case, which can also explain why some Kates still participated)

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 5:31:12 AM)
LoBaron: Yes, I considered that too. I'm pretty sure the targets for all of them were Pearl Harbor. I'd been setting them by using Kaga's airgroups to set the settings and then clicking the button to generalize the orders for all the Kates in the TF. After that, I would double-check each of the Kate groups to make sure they were set correctly. However, you just made me realize that when I take Kaga's Kate group and say set all torpedo bombers to the same settings it switches Shokaku and Zuikaku's Kates to port attack but still has the target set as Pearl Harbor. I'm wondering if the target actually was deselected even though it still claims Pearl Harbor was set? I'll test this by individually setting each CV and see the differing result (now that I've thought of this, it seems a bit ridiculous that I hadn't tried this earlier).

Shark7 -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 2:41:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ny59giants Check the setting on each of your CVs for your Kates. Each of your attacks shows only 72 Kates. KB - Akagi, Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku (27 x 4 = 108) & Hiryu and Soryu (18 x 2 = 36). Total = 144 Only half are being used for Port attack. Why?? Actually I've noticed this as well. Even when I get the full strike of 144 kate/val I rarely sink anything day 1 (could be the difficulty setting I guess). Basically, unless I get a magazine explosion critical hit, the BBs take 2-3 days of attacks to sink.

ny59giants -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 4:10:11 PM)
The BBs at Pearl 'usually' need 4, if not, 5 torpedo hits to sink them unless you get an ammo or fuel explosion. Hard to do with just one days worth of attacks. As an Allied player, I regard the hits on my CA/CLs to more important at this time as I need them for CV escorts. Sink some BBs, and leave my cruisers alone.

Keldun -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 7:32:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Looks good. Wasn´t AAA increased in strenght over the betas? This could lead to worse results as compared to before beta if planes are hit prior to bomb release. Try to up the altitude a bit, say 12-14k and look how many 800kg/Torp hits you score on the big ships. Before I forget: There were "only" 2 BBs lost at PH. So your best result is in accordance to reality - at least considering what the term "ships sunk" on game terms. [;)] Actually there were 4 bb sunk in the pearl harbour attack but they managed to refloat 2 of them later. Here is the total list of the loss on that attack US 4 battleships sunk 3 battleships damaged 1 battleship grounded 2 destroyers sunk 1 other ship sunk 3 cruisers damaged[nb 1] 1 destroyer damaged 3 other ships damaged 188 aircraft destroyed 155 aircraft damaged JP 4 midget submarines sunk 1 midget submarine grounded 29 aircraft destroyed I retried many times as well to reproduce similar result (with the 7th dec surprise option)but never managed even though after like 20 tries, i did get 3 bb sunk but the number of aircraft or smaller ship sunk wasn't anywhere close. I know we can play a dec 8 game but it would be nice to be able to reproduce the battle that started the war, wasn't it the purpose of the option of 7th dec surprise ?

mdiehl -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 8:08:45 PM)
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in WitP a ship "sunk" is not refloatable, same as GGPW, right? So, "damaged, on fire" is the proper result for three of the USN BBs historically sunk at Pearl Harbor (but later refloated), and "Sunk" is the proper WitP result for the one USN BB at PH that was written off completely (USS Arizona). Or arguably two "sunk" (Arizona and Oklahoma) since the latter was refloated but not returned to service. So the historically correct result in WiTP should be one or two USN BBs sunk, 2 DDs sunk, 1 minelayer sunk, a whole bunch of a.c. destroyed, and a whole bunch of ships damaged to varying degrees, some damaged to within inches of their electronic database "lives."

pauk -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 8:16:58 PM)
LOL, anemic attacks at PH happens in Allied edition too? [:D]

Alfred -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 9:49:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keldun ...I know we can play a dec 8 game but it would be nice to be able to reproduce the battle that started the war, wasn't it the purpose of the option of 7th dec surprise ? No, that isn't the intent of 7th Dec Surprise. The intent is to reproduce the unpreparedness of Allied forces anywhere in the PTO to meet the initial Japanese attacks. Even if you combine it with "Historical Start" you still don't get a faithful reproduction of the Pearl Harbor strike because of die rolls. No, the only way you are guaranteed to replicate the Pearl Harbor strike is to play the 8th December scenario. Alfred

Lecivius -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 10:06:17 PM)
I'm going to have to go on random rolls. I refer you to my dated post http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2850354 where the entire battle line in PH went under. I had the latest bete patch as well. It hurts, but the sheer randomness of the game is what makes it interesting.

LoBaron -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 10:39:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keldun quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Before I forget: There were "only" 2 BBs lost at PH. So your best result is in accordance to reality - at least considering what the term "ships sunk" on game terms. [;)] Actually there were 4 bb sunk in the pearl harbour attack but they managed to refloat 2 of them later. I retried many times as well to reproduce similar result (with the 7th dec surprise option)but never managed even though after like 20 tries, i did get 3 bb sunk but the number of aircraft or smaller ship sunk wasn't anywhere close. I know we can play a dec 8 game but it would be nice to be able to reproduce the battle that started the war, wasn't it the purpose of the option of 7th dec surprise ? Thats why I wrote '"ships sunk" on game' terms. In game sunk ships are sunk. A BB with 80 major flotation could well be interpreted as capsized or or run aground, and later refloated. [;)] As for your question: In fact the dec 8th scenario was the purpose of reproducing the battle that started the war. The dec 7th surprise just recreates the historical prerequisite. Edit: Alfred I should have simply copy pasted your response... [8D]

Keldun -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 10:47:24 PM)
That certainly is overboard but there should be a good middle ground between that and very few aircraft and 0-1 bb sunk +small ships most of the time. Your result extreme but it is like someone getting 60 points from 10 dices with a single roll (probably super rare [;)]).

Keldun -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/25/2011 11:05:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Keldun ...I know we can play a dec 8 game but it would be nice to be able to reproduce the battle that started the war, wasn't it the purpose of the option of 7th dec surprise ? No, that isn't the intent of 7th Dec Surprise. The intent is to reproduce the unpreparedness of Allied forces anywhere in the PTO to meet the initial Japanese attacks. Even if you combine it with "Historical Start" you still don't get a faithful reproduction of the Pearl Harbor strike because of die rolls. No, the only way you are guaranteed to replicate the Pearl Harbor strike is to play the 8th December scenario. Alfred How about boosting a bit more damage done with the 7th dec surprise option to non flying airplanes (in ph, clarkfield,wake and maybe others?) and ships docked in ph on the 7th december so that we can get a result a bit closer to what it was at the start of the war a bit more often? Or is there any reason why we shouldn't try to get a result close more often? I' m not asking for the exact same faithful result, I' m just asking to be able to reproduce something close more often. At the moment I see lecivius having an extreme result and the topic starter and myself seem to have always gotten much worse result after many tries.

CaptBeefheart -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/26/2011 3:48:34 AM)
GoTraurig: Apologies if you mentioned this above, but did you actually look at the Allied side to determine the real losses? Fog of war can give you bogus results. Cheers, CC

GoTraurig -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/26/2011 12:34:57 PM)
Commander Cody: Yes, I was doing my testings via hotseat and examined the results from both sides. LoBaron: I didn't intend for this thread to be a complaint that my results were not historic. A historical result on any of the strikes or major battles is not necessarily expected or required. Although, after rereading my initial post, I said the historical result was the standard. Using the "historical" result (2 BBs sunk) as the standard, i.e. the average result for the Japanese side in a PBEM, was my understanding of what to expect at the time. In retrospect, to be clear, I should have stated that almost all my strikes were weaker than what I perceive the average from looking through AARs and reading player discussions. Everyone: My main purposes for this thread were to achieve some combination of: 1. To verify that I was setting up the strike properly. 2. To ensure I wasn't experiencing a bug. 3. To seek advice on minimizing the potential for a really bad result. 4. To learn what results should be expected. 5. To determine why my strikes were so much weaker than those I usually see in AARs and other discussions. So far I have at least partially achieved 1, 3, 4, and 5, with my thanks and appreciation to you all. Currently my only related problem is ensuring more than half my Kates fly - I understand it could be just bad die rolls, but they were awfully consistent for a while. I've also pretty much accepted that the solution, and all the advice I'll probably receive about this, is to ensure that the Kates have the proper orders and just hope they decide to fly. Lecivius: That sure was an interesting strike. Thanks for bringing an outlier, on the other side of the results, for me to view - too bad you had to experience it.

LoBaron -> RE: Anemic Pearl Harbor Strikes (8/26/2011 3:10:52 PM)
GoTraurig, I did not see your post as a complaint. My motivation to post the 'The art of "averaging out"' thread is much older already, because misinterpreting historical results is a more or less common occurance on the forum. If there was any additional reason at all, it was Kelduns post suggesting to "boost a bit more damage" to "so that we can get a result a bit closer to what it was at the start of the war" concerning PH. This statement suggests a classic misconception of what should be a "common result", because the expected average is based on viewing a single historical event as representative, simply because it happened that way.

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