Finland units disapearition

Finland units disapearition (Full Version)

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saintsup -> Finland units disapearition (8/31/2011 9:02:01 PM)
I'm at the beginning of turn 86 of a PBEM and opening my turn, I see all Finland units have disapeared. Is this by some rule I don't know or a bug ?

Theng -> RE: Finland units disapearition (8/31/2011 9:06:36 PM)
Maybe they surrendered?

saintsup -> RE: Finland units disapearition (8/31/2011 10:56:14 PM)
I don't see why. Soviets just began to enter in Finland through the north. What are the surrender conditions ?

Joel Billings -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 12:04:16 AM)
19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet controlled. There is a chance that Finland will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet controlled. If one of these conditions is met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST) value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for each German Division in Helsinki plus 2 additional points for each Division that is an Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die (10)>ST, then Finland surrenders. When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled hexes in Finland will become neutral, and German units there are removed and 257 returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes will remain on the map.

CarnageINC -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 12:13:11 AM)
Rule quotations again! And by Joel no less....[X(]

saintsup -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 7:54:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings 19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet controlled. There is a chance that Finland will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet controlled. If one of these conditions is met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST) value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for each German Division in Helsinki plus 2 additional points for each Division that is an Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die (10)>ST, then Finland surrenders. When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled hexes in Finland will become neutral, and German units there are removed and 257 returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes will remain on the map. Well thank you very much. For the record, I think the condition stating that the soviet control of ANY city or town in Finland gives a 80% finnish surrender probability is a bit harsh.

KenchiSulla -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 9:47:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: saintsup quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings 19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet controlled. There is a chance that Finland will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet controlled. If one of these conditions is met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST) value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for each German Division in Helsinki plus 2 additional points for each Division that is an Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die (10)>ST, then Finland surrenders. When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled hexes in Finland will become neutral, and German units there are removed and 257 returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes will remain on the map. Well thank you very much. For the record, I think the condition stating that the soviet control of ANY city or town in Finland gives a 80% finnish surrender probability is a bit harsh. Actually it seems to be pretty realistic. Once Germany was pushed back west and the red army managed to attack into Finland (succesfully) Finland didn't really want to continue the fight...

Jakerson -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 1:54:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings 19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet controlled. There is a chance that Finland will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet controlled. If one of these conditions is met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST) value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for each German Division in Helsinki plus 2 additional points for each Division that is an Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die (10)>ST, then Finland surrenders. When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled hexes in Finland will become neutral, and German units there are removed and 257 returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes will remain on the map. I am still clad that this game simulates Finnish involvement on war on eastern front most realistic way than any war game before. To be correct Finland never surrendered actually they made separate peace with Soviet Union and declared war on Germany to push 200 000 Germans away from Lapland witch was part of the terms of Peace treaty. This is also area that is not covered in this game. Why Soviet wanted to separate peace with Finland well after their summer 1944 offensive against Finland they calculated that it is not worth to lose 500 000 soviet lives just so we can say we won in the end. Finnish artillery was too effective to Soviet to counter without losing massive number of Soviet lives while doing it.

JAS Gripen -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 2:10:06 PM)
After Stalingrad Finnish leaders had no doubt about the outcome of the war but there was two main reasons that kept Finland in the war until 1944 1. the ability of the German Army and Navy to occupy critical areas of Finland faster than troops could be pulled back from the front, and that was assuming that the Red Army would not seize the opportunity... 2. the loss of important agricultural areas to the Soviets in the Winter War and the subsequent loss of harvests and increased need for food in the remaining areas as the refugees had to be fed (about 0,5 million of total population of 3.7 million became refugees). Germany was the only source of imported food available to avoid famine.

Jakerson -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 2:35:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JAS Gripen After Stalingrad Finnish leaders had no doubt about the outcome of the war but there was two main reasons that kept Finland in the war until 1944 1. the ability of the German Army and Navy to occupy critical areas of Finland faster than troops could be pulled back from the front, and that was assuming that the Red Army would not seize the opportunity... 2. the loss of important agricultural areas to the Soviets in the Winter War and the subsequent loss of harvests and increased need for food in the remaining areas as the refugees had to be fed (about 0,5 million of total population of 3.7 million became refugees). Germany was the only source of imported food available to avoid famine. This is reason why Finns leeched as much of weapons and food imports from Germany first by threating to make peace and closer ties with Soviet Union and made peace with Soviet union afterwards when immediate needs were covered. It is called balancing between two strong power diplomatic strategy. If Germany would have said we cannot spare any help then Finns would have said ok We ask it from Soviet Union then looks like they are winning the war is this really what you want or do we go back to negotiate what help you can give? Giving Germany what they wanted for free wound have been poor strategy for small country. This is reason why Finns never joined for unrestricted attacks against Soviet Union for free. It was a lot better for Finns stop attack and start asking more from Germany and Soviet Union both from involvement or no involvement. It was also a lot less riskier strategy than other options.

marty_01 -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 6:10:04 PM)
What phase of a turn is the Finn surrender die roll made? I could easily see players taking advantage of the rule via a long range para drop on a Finnish city.

Joel Billings -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 6:46:52 PM)
From 19.1.4: Note that when determining Axis allied country surrender, any Soviet occupied town, city or urban hex must be linked to the Soviet supply grid in order to trigger a surrender condition. This means that a Soviet airborne combat unit dropping behind enemy lines and capturing a town that could cause the surrender of an Axis allied country will have no impact on surrender until that town is linked to the Soviet supply grid.

marty_01 -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/1/2011 9:15:16 PM)
Very good.

Farfarer61 -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/2/2011 12:13:22 AM)
Watch out for losing those 2 Romanian towns which are in the Y106 but northerly. Poof goes Rumania if the SS isn't in Bucharest.

marty_01 -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/2/2011 3:15:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Farfarer Watch out for losing those 2 Romanian towns which are in the Y106 but northerly. Poof goes Rumania if the SS isn't in Bucharest. Thanks for the heads-up Farfarer.

Aussiematto -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/3/2011 4:37:04 AM)
And, if you lose Rumania and don't have a garrison in the town near to the Hungarian border, that town will turn Soviet as well. And, once that happens, Hungary surrenders too. Ouch (from experience). Back to Finland. I am defending grimly in October 1943 with the Russians about to break through near Riga and pushing me out of the Pripyat marshes and down towards Rumania. It's not a pretty situation. However, I've got a virtually impregnable defence of Finland in the north, and at Leningrad, and have garrisoned the other key places in Finland against paratroopers or other surprises. So, if you prepare in advance, Finnish surrender isn't really a game changer. Am just deciding whether to defend Rumania to the hilt or just give it away. Hungary is critical however...

Jakerson -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/3/2011 2:21:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: majeloz And, if you lose Rumania and don't have a garrison in the town near to the Hungarian border, that town will turn Soviet as well. And, once that happens, Hungary surrenders too. Ouch (from experience). Back to Finland. I am defending grimly in October 1943 with the Russians about to break through near Riga and pushing me out of the Pripyat marshes and down towards Rumania. It's not a pretty situation. However, I've got a virtually impregnable defence of Finland in the north, and at Leningrad, and have garrisoned the other key places in Finland against paratroopers or other surprises. So, if you prepare in advance, Finnish surrender isn't really a game changer. Am just deciding whether to defend Rumania to the hilt or just give it away. Hungary is critical however... All i can say from Experience that Germany cannot hold everywhere at same time sooner or later Germany have to abandon axis allies and focus defending Germany itself.

Q-Ball -> RE: Finland units disapearition (9/3/2011 3:45:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: majeloz And, if you lose Rumania and don't have a garrison in the town near to the Hungarian border, that town will turn Soviet as well. And, once that happens, Hungary surrenders too. Ouch (from experience). That's a good point on the domino effect, because Arad is in Romania. If there isn't a German Unit there, it will flip to the Soviets, and trigger a chance of immediate Hungarian Surrender. Not good! As soon as the Soviets are close to Romania, placing a German Division in Arad is probably mandatory (since you can't place a Hungarian one there!). If you are defending in Romania, you probably need a string of German units covering all the towns along the Rail line from Bucharest. That is 11 units to Bucharest, and another half dozen to Y106, around which your Germans probably are. That's several divisions guarding Rail lines! At that stage, you probably have some depleted units to do that, but still. Defending Romania is a big fat problem. Once the Russians are over the Dneister, the Germans have to be careful not to get completely cut-off.

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