What German Heavy Bomber Program...

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Footslogger -> What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/5/2011 1:49:32 AM)
I seem to remember that there was this one guy who was in charge of the German heavy bomber program; that was killed in a train accident taking the program with him?? Who was it?

traemyn -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/5/2011 3:04:05 AM)
Was is Walter Wever?

WingedIncubus -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/5/2011 5:30:50 PM)
Nitpick: He did not die in a train accident, but in an flying accident.

Footslogger -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/5/2011 9:25:04 PM)
had the Germans had lets say...3 squadrons of the JU 89.. would it of changed the out come of the war?

cherryfunk -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/5/2011 10:11:43 PM)
No.

Klydon -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/5/2011 10:56:12 PM)
The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all.

Footslogger -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/5/2011 11:58:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all. That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened?

glvaca -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 1:05:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Footslogger quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all. That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened? Hmmm, the Fw190 became operational around summer 1941. I don't think it could have been earlier but... IF they would only have had simple drop tanks for the Me109 things would have been different.

tigercub -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 1:51:50 AM)
well they did have drop tanks but they had problems with the release of the tanks and was not realy fixed until after Battle of Britain ...me109E7 was the first to have a good drop tank.

Klydon -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 2:27:25 AM)
The FW190 was undergoing testing during this time. (First prototype flew in the fall of 1939). The aircraft was still being tested and a lot of kinks worked out (especially with the engines and also the overheat issues). Pre-production was not ordered until late 1940; after the Battle of Britain. Had the 190 been available earlier, it had approximately 20% more range than the 109 (500 miles or so vs almost 400 for the 109), so that would have helped, but I don't know if it would have been decisive. It was absolutely better than anything the British had at the time (and would be when it did come into service in late 1941 in the West). I think a 109 with drop tanks had around 500 miles or so

Footslogger -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 2:34:28 AM)
Having learned all of this, what would have been the ideal make up of the Luftwaffe then? OT: I also heard that the Panther tank was designed in 1933??

tigercub -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 5:38:09 AM)
lol the panther was made after they found about sloped armor,they starting thinking about it in 42 , first fought in 1943... The idear of a long range fighter was to be the Me110 but it never was realy was a fighter (goering wanted to be)but was a great attack plane...but never could handle single engine fighters...

Speedysteve -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 10:33:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Footslogger Having learned all of this, what would have been the ideal make up of the Luftwaffe then? OT: I also heard that the Panther tank was designed in 1933?? Tough one to call except in dream land. The LW was a Tactical Airforce and was not suited to Strategic bombing (hence predominantly short ranged aircraft). It wasn't suited for the Battle of Britain - the 109 was too short legged, the bombers not that sturdy (exept the Ju88) and they didn't have great defensive power. All in all not ideal for fighting BoB. In an ideal world they'd need a B29 and P51 equivalent along with a Shturmovik for GS missions.

Klydon -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 1:40:41 PM)
Well, part of it is how you define "ideal". The brain trust behind the Luftwaffe never envisioned a Battle of Britain scenario. They were more concerned with defense of the homeland and at best, continental situations. Looked at through that prisim, the Luftwaffe was more than adequate to that task with one glaring exception and that was the expectation that the Me110 would be able to escort bombers and be effective against enemy fighter opposition. Don't get me wrong; there were plenty of flawed views within the Luftwaffe (Udent's strong desire to turn anything into a dive bomber for instance led to needless complications for the twin engine bombers that degraded their performance for little gain is but one example). The other issue is the Germans had limited resources to reconstitue the Luftwaffe. They could build more medium bombers (which were far more flexible in mission capability) compared to large bombers (good at strategic warefare, but not very good in the tactical realm).

glvaca -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 1:50:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tigercub well they did have drop tanks but they had problems with the release of the tanks and was not realy fixed until after Battle of Britain ...me109E7 was the first to have a good drop tank. Yes, well, they didn't have it for the battle, did they?

glvaca -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 1:52:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tigercub The idear of a long range�fighter was to be the Me110 but it never was realy was a fighter�(goering wanted to be)but was a great attack plane...but never could handle single engine fighters... They could in Russia, Poland, France, etc... But against Spits or other top class fighters it couldn't compete.

tigercub -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 2:47:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: glvaca quote: ORIGINAL: tigercub well they did have drop tanks but they had problems with the release of the tanks and was not realy fixed until after Battle of Britain ...me109E7 was the first to have a good drop tank. Yes, well, they didn't have it for the battle, did they? no The other word i needed to add was MODERN single engine fighters.

warspite1 -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 4:20:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: glvaca quote: ORIGINAL: Footslogger quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all. That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened? Hmmm, the Fw190 became operational around summer 1941. I don't think it could have been earlier but... IF they would only have had simple drop tanks for the Me109 things would have been different. Warspite1 May have been different. I think too little is made of the Luftwaffe's faulty tactics. The Me-109 fighters were badly utilised because it was wrongly felt that they were best employed in staying close to the bombers - thus sacrificing their speed. Just having more time over England would not have changed that; besides, all fighters had limited ammunition, and although I have no definitive data to back it up, I would be very surprised if fighters - British or German - landed without having expended their full load once battle was joined. The Luftwaffe had the best fighter in the world in 1940 (the Spitfire I was in its early stages) and they blew it.

Tarhunnas -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 4:56:18 PM)
Have you read Macksey's "Invasion"? Interesting read of an alternative history where the Germans win the BoB and invade - or rather, win by invading. A great read!

glvaca -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 5:13:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas Have you read Macksey's "Invasion"? Interesting read of an alternative history where the Germans win the BoB and invade - or rather, win by invading. A great read! Interesting, on to amazon [;)]

glvaca -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 5:23:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: glvaca quote: ORIGINAL: Footslogger quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all. That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened? Hmmm, the Fw190 became operational around summer 1941. I don't think it could have been earlier but... IF they would only have had simple drop tanks for the Me109 things would have been different. Warspite1 May have been different. I think too little is made of the Luftwaffe's faulty tactics. The Me-109 fighters were badly utilised because it was wrongly felt that they were best employed in staying close to the bombers - thus sacrificing their speed. Just having more time over England would not have changed that; besides, all fighters had limited ammunition, and although I have no definitive data to back it up, I would be very surprised if fighters - British or German - landed without having expended their full load once battle was joined. The Luftwaffe had the best fighter in the world in 1940 (the Spitfire I was in its early stages) and they blew it. Well things would have been different, but I didn't say the outcome would have [:D][;)] You're right, but also wrong [:'(] The Germans didn't start out with close escort, they were pressed into it during the battle when losses for the bombers mounted. But that said, I won't dispute that it was bad tactics, which the Germans never repeated as even Goring recognized it in the end. Hmmm, wether the 109 was better than the spit or vice versa is an ongoing debate from the event itself. If the flight models and performances of the planes in IL2-sturmovik is any reference, they are very, very closely matched in speed and climb but the spit is the better turner which is offset by the engine being unable to take negative G. Anyway, the orginal premise was that with 30m extra flying time, the 109's would have been much more effective and losses would have been lower (many planes and pilots were lost because they ran out of fuel on the way back). Concerning ammo, it's more likely to run out of ammo if you're attacking bombers which need many hits to take down. So I'm not sure if that arguement can be used to the advantage of the Brits.

parusski -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 5:44:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Footslogger quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all. That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened? Another yes. I recall the time over Britain as being a few short minutes for German fighter planes.

warspite1 -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 6:49:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: glvaca quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: glvaca quote: ORIGINAL: Footslogger quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all. That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened? Hmmm, the Fw190 became operational around summer 1941. I don't think it could have been earlier but... IF they would only have had simple drop tanks for the Me109 things would have been different. Warspite1 May have been different. I think too little is made of the Luftwaffe's faulty tactics. The Me-109 fighters were badly utilised because it was wrongly felt that they were best employed in staying close to the bombers - thus sacrificing their speed. Just having more time over England would not have changed that; besides, all fighters had limited ammunition, and although I have no definitive data to back it up, I would be very surprised if fighters - British or German - landed without having expended their full load once battle was joined. The Luftwaffe had the best fighter in the world in 1940 (the Spitfire I was in its early stages) and they blew it. Well things would have been different, but I didn't say the outcome would have [:D][;)] You're right, but also wrong [:'(] The Germans didn't start out with close escort, they were pressed into it during the battle when losses for the bombers mounted. But that said, I won't dispute that it was bad tactics, which the Germans never repeated as even Goring recognized it in the end. Hmmm, wether the 109 was better than the spit or vice versa is an ongoing debate from the event itself. If the flight models and performances of the planes in IL2-sturmovik is any reference, they are very, very closely matched in speed and climb but the spit is the better turner which is offset by the engine being unable to take negative G. Anyway, the orginal premise was that with 30m extra flying time, the 109's would have been much more effective and losses would have been lower (many planes and pilots were lost because they ran out of fuel on the way back). Concerning ammo, it's more likely to run out of ammo if you're attacking bombers which need many hits to take down. So I'm not sure if that arguement can be used to the advantage of the Brits. Warspite1 Not according to James Holland "The Battle of Britain" [Goring] had been quite specific in insisting fighters operated independently. "Putting the majority of fighters and Zerst�rers close to the bomber formations will prevent then from being used as effectively as they might". Somehow, this clear directive got lost in translation...... The situation got worse over time as Goring blamed the fighters for the bomber losses and then demanded more and more fighters be used for each attack. Problem was of course, by that time, there were not the same number of fighters available. Yes the RAF was not exactly flush with pilots, but the Luftwaffe was being bled white. Total ammunition burst was measured in seconds (cannot recall how many - but it was low around 20? I agree that there were fighters that fell into the drink on the way back, and maybe some of these would have survived. I just do not believe it would have been the deciding factor. In addition, the British were outstripping German production easily, the repair rate for damaged aircraft was much higher than that for the Germans.

glvaca -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 7:24:43 PM)
Just re-read the section concerning this in Galland's "The First and the Last". He's quite clear that Goring required close and rigit protection _during_ the battle as losses mounted for the bombers. Page 28. Around 15 sec for the early spits. Lots of 303 guns with limited effectiveness. The 109's will be something in the order of 20+ sec machine gun, but IIRC only about 60 rounds per canon (2x20mm in wings). And the British pilots actually had orders to fire on the rescue services [;)] 30min. more over the combat area would most certainly have made a difference. It is the difference between having to rush in an engagement with one eye on the fuel gauge constantly or having time to pick your fight and engage from a good position. I mean, they had, histroically 15m over target, that would have become 45m. You cannot say that is not a considerable difference. Many of the German pilot stories mention the lack of the drop tanks and how, in their mind, it would have made a difference. Whether it would have been enough for the Germans to gain the advantage is impossible to say, obviously, their failure to keep pressure on the airfields and the radar stations are also major reasons why you Brits were able to win the battle. So again, not saying it would have changed the outcome, but it surely would have had an influence [;)]

warspite1 -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Program... (9/6/2011 7:48:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: glvaca Just re-read the section concerning this in Galland's "The First and the Last". He's quite clear that Goring required close and rigit protection _during_ the battle as losses mounted for the bombers. Page 28. Around 15 sec for the early spits. Lots of 303 guns with limited effectiveness. The 109's will be something in the order of 20+ sec machine gun, but IIRC only about 60 rounds per canon (2x20mm in wings). And the British pilots actually had orders to fire on the rescue services [;)] 30min. more over the combat area would most certainly have made a difference. It is the difference between having to rush in an engagement with one eye on the fuel gauge constantly or having time to pick your fight and engage from a good position. I mean, they had, histroically 15m over target, that would have become 45m. You cannot say that is not a considerable difference. Many of the German pilot stories mention the lack of the drop tanks and how, in their mind, it would have made a difference. Whether it would have been enough for the Germans to gain the advantage is impossible to say, obviously, their failure to keep pressure on the airfields and the radar stations are also major reasons why you Brits were able to win the battle. So again, not saying it would have changed the outcome, but it surely would have had an influence [;)] Warspite1 Who is right Galland or Holland? Well it sounds like what Galland says mirrors what Holland says - the only difference is where did the order eminate from? Doesn't really matter in the final analysis. Whoever it was was was wrong - and it cost the Luftwaffe! Yes the lack of understanding of the importance of those big towers on the coast did the Germans no favours - whoops... British pilots had orders to fire on the "rescue services" - I won't go there as the thread will just descend into one of those tit for tat exchanges (that is not aimed at you glvaca). Suffice to say both sides can claim "wrong doing" and I am sure we have our own thoughts on that.

Zebedee -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 8:10:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon Well, part of it is how you define "ideal". The brain trust behind the Luftwaffe never envisioned a Battle of Britain scenario. They were more concerned with defense of the homeland and at best, continental situations. Looked at through that prisim, the Luftwaffe was more than adequate to that task with one glaring exception and that was the expectation that the Me110 would be able to escort bombers and be effective against enemy fighter opposition. They planned for and envisioned a Battle of Britain scenario. In fact, the initial planning for the attack on the West called for an assault through the low countries, a defensive line in Northern France, and access for the LW from airbases on the channel coast to bomb Britain out of the war. The Ju-88 was designed with this in mind. Compare the RAF bombers of the time with the Ju-88. Likewise compare the initial RAF results with that of the LW in the Battle of Britain. Same problems. Only Britain was able to allocate resources to the RAF to expand and improve its bomber force in a way which was not possible for Germany after the failure to knock the Soviet Union out in one quick campaign.

Klydon -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 10:37:28 PM)
That may have been Nazi propaganda (bombing the British out of the war), but most any reasonable person in the Luftwaffe didn't have it in mind. The Ju-88 was a replacement for the prewar bombers that were converted from fast passinger planes or courier planes that were designed to also have military uses (HE-111 and Do-17). The Ju-88 was a warplane from the start; not built with civil aviation in mind. If the Germans had been serious about a Battle of Britain scenario, drop tanks would have had a lot more attention paid to them sooner, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a Me-109 is going to have issues in any projection of power over Britain. Of course, a lot of people were all in on the Me-110 as being the big time plane to project fighter power over enemy airspace. As far as aircraft production goes, the British were finally cranking planes out, especially compared to the Germans. The issue the RAF faced was pilots. This is where the Germans came the closest to breaking the RAF is the life of a RAF pilot dropped to days at the height of the battle and the British came very close to deciding to pull back their remaining fighter forces to try to stop a would be German invasion. For the WITE, (and in general) can you imagine had the Luftwaffe not fought the Battle of Britain, what would have been the result elsewhere? The Germans would have been able to make the Med a even worse place for Allied shipping just with the Stukas that got shot down and the Germans could have likely had 800 more planes to use against Russia. In addition, think of all the air crew losses the Germans took during the Battle of Britain. I don't know that they were able to ever replace them adequately and probably from a quality standpoint of view, it was never the same.

Zebedee -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/6/2011 11:33:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon That may have been Nazi propaganda (bombing the British out of the war), but most any reasonable person in the Luftwaffe didn't have it in mind. The Ju-88 was a replacement for the prewar bombers that were converted from fast passinger planes or courier planes that were designed to also have military uses (HE-111 and Do-17). The Ju-88 was a warplane from the start; not built with civil aviation in mind. If the Germans had been serious about a Battle of Britain scenario, drop tanks would have had a lot more attention paid to them sooner, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a Me-109 is going to have issues in any projection of power over Britain. Of course, a lot of people were all in on the Me-110 as being the big time plane to project fighter power over enemy airspace. To cut a long and tedious discussion short, you may find the theoretical work presented in Militaerwissenschaftliche Rundschau of interest as background to a discussion on the development of German air doctrine in the late 30s. As Felmy highlighted in spring 1939, they knew what they wanted to do but feared they had not the resources to do it. Felmy was proven to be correct in 1940. Events elsewhere prevented a concerted repeat performance. Nazi propaganda is one thing, planning for the conduct of a war is another. They're not really mutually interchangeable. Although Germany did try in 1941.

lastdingo -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/7/2011 12:09:48 AM)
Fw 187 and He 100 were extremely promising German longer-range fighters, even He 112 (original Bf 109 competitor) had a 1000+ km range. It was really only Messerschmidt who **ed the range thing up. The Ju 88 and He 111 also had enough range for England missions. In worst case they had to reduce their bomb load. Ju 88 B-position (upper machine gunner position) sucked because of its inability to defend to the sides. Fw 190 and Ju 288 could have fixed all those woes by early 1942 (both with 2,000 hp Jumo 222 engine(s)), but RLM ed up the Ju 288 project and some Jumo engineers **ed up the Jumo 222 project.

cherryfunk -> RE: What German Heavy Bomber Progra put m... (9/7/2011 12:10:25 AM)
As I understand it -- the worst case scenario for the British is that they're forced to pull back to bases in Scotland, which are out of Luftwaffe range, where they rest and refit and wait. When the invasion comes, the RAF pours down from the north to contest the air space while the Royal Navy obliterates the invasion "fleet" (consisting mostly of river barges which could be capsized by the wake of a fast-moving destroyer...)

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