N00b question about Amphib operations (Full Version)

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richlove -> N00b question about Amphib operations (9/9/2011 8:45:58 PM)

Long time lurker, finally bought the game (it's awesome, I'm hooked), first n00b question (of many, I'm sure). I'm playing the Aleutian campaign as the Allies, and am gearing up for the Kiska invasion. It occurred to me that I have no idea about how to effectively mount an amphibious invasion. Some questions come to mind:

- Composition of task forces: do you have a bombard task force and an amphib task force? I've read that people put a BB in the amphib to help w/ CD guns… Do you lead w/ an ASW task force?
- Any specific orders for the amphib TF to unload at target?
- Any rules of thumb regarding supply to bring to the target? About how much AV to bring (relative to target strength)?
- Are there any specific tricks needed to get the troops to load, with supplies, and head out? I *thought* I gave them the right orders but the TF mouse-over said they were 'unloading' at Dutch Harbor, which is what prompted me to post.

Any other wisdom you could share would help too.



Speedy Gonzales -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/9/2011 9:33:16 PM)

1) Yes, have the bombard TF attack the turn you want to land, add some cruisers to your amphib force, they will surpress the beaches. If you have enough heavy ships you can also have several bombard tf that roll in over several turns.
2) No, just move it to the target hex and make sure it is set to 'unload', I always set it to 'do not unload' while loading, to avoid accidental unloading. If you can, bomb and recon the island extensively prior to landing
3) Supplies, as much as you can fit in the TF. Needed AV depends, I try to bring double, small islands (yellow names) have limits on how many troops they can support (huge penalty). The needed av really depends on factors like prepping, how good your recon is, how long you bombarded the place and of course what the opponent has there. It helps if you can bring combat engineers and/or tanks. It really depends on how well defended the place is.
4) No, no rules, just set them to load and pick a target hex. You probably picked a hex in the sea with the setting 'retiring allowed', it got to the hex and sailed back to port and started unloading. Set it to 'remain on station' instead and it will stay.

Other wisdom: If it is larger operation, have backup troops loaded and on standby. It does happen that you need more troops for a landing than you thought so its good to have something to be able to throw in on short notice. Oh and make you you are not using xAK or xAP in the amphib force, they are no good for landing troops in amphib invasions.



Speedy Gonzales -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/9/2011 9:43:43 PM)

Three more things:
1) If the place is to far away to control the skies, bring carriers to provide local air superiority. Don't place the carrier TF in the coastal hex where the landing is taking place. Only half of a carrier planes will fly in coastal hexes. Park the carriers in an open sea hex nearby and place fighters on long range cap over your amphib TF.

2) Handpick the leaders of your invasion units. You don't want 2nd Lieutenant Engelbert Humberdinck in charge of your first wave. Pick high ranking leaders with good ground skills.

3) Bring a flag for iconic pictures



pompack -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/9/2011 9:48:14 PM)

Bunch of stuff compiled from many threads over at least the last decade [:D]

Thoughts on Amphibious Assaults upon Atolls and Small Islands


I. General
Atolls and small islands will be referred to simply as atolls below; in general the problems are the same. The attacker should use every APA and AKA he can scrape up. Atolls are tough because of the stacking limits. If the defender packs the atoll to its limit then, by definition, that attacker cannot exceed 1:1 odds unless he overstacks himself. The only drawback with defending (some) atolls is there is often a supply limit as well since the port and airfield limits are generally low. Thus the attacker must use every advantage he can scrape up with prep time, command ratings and experience. Of course, the defender will also use these factors; an attacker can generally count on the defender being at max prep. The command and experience ratings of the defender will depend on just how important the atoll is to the defender. Needless to say, a key large atoll will be EXTREMELY tough because of the high stacking limit and good leaders assigned to crack units.

II. Assault Preliminaries
A. Seal off the atoll with an air and navel blockade. Reinforcement and supply convoys must be prevent from reaching the atoll. Note that subs are helpful but cannot guarantee a 100% blockade
B. Extended air bombardment is vital. Bombardment should first suppress the airbase and then concentrate on the port (in order to reduce CD guns). All port and airfield bombardment will reduce supply levels
C. Use at least one navel bombardment before the invasion convoy even sails to determine the CD level of the atoll. The TF should stay at moderate range (15k+ yards) to avoid mines. Based upon the results it may be necessary to delay the invasion to provide more suppression of CD guns
D. Once CD guns are suppressed, send another bombardment group in with fast minesweepers; if none are available send slow minesweepers with a bombardment TF in follow mode.

III. Assault Options
A. Slow Grind: Assault force does not significantly exceed limit. Use infantry with lots of engineers, little artillery and very little armor (artillery and armor seem to cost an excessive amount of “stacking”). Land on “broad front” with each transport at no more than 25% troop capacity and less is better; the intention is to unload everybody and substantial supply in the initial landing before the land attack phase. Attack on the first land phase (mandatory for atolls). Bring in the followup supply convoy and start unloading. You have more supply than you can every use, so use it. Continue attacking each turn unless disruption exceeds about 20%; bombard on turns you do not attack (you have lots of supply, the defender has all he is ever going to get. Ground bombardments may not do much damage but they do chew up supply for both sides.)
B. Quick and Dirty: Assault force exceeds stacking limit by about 2:1. Use infantry with lots of engineers, little artillery and little armor. Land on a broad front with each transport at no more than 20% troop capacity. Unload the supply convoy (same size as assault convoy just no APA or AKA) at the same time; Q&D is an attempt to overwhelm the enemy before you starve so the faster you can unload supplies the better. DO NOT allow the transports to leave. Attack every turn, no matter what. Bring in a reserve assault TF with about one stacking limit of troops (same 20% capacity) and another supply convoy to unload two days after the initial assault. Create as many small TFs as required from the original assault force and start loading any ground unit that becomes combat ineffective; you won’t load very fast but every little bit helps to keep from starving. Bring in a second reserve assault TF with about one stacking limit of troops and another supply convoy to unload about 5-6 days after the original invasion; you really, really hope that it will not be necessary. Have a “Disaster Relief” TF on station from the second day; it should contain every navel support unit you can scrape up with the total not to exceed 50% stacking limit. Land the “DR” force immediately after the base is taken and start withdrawing everybody else except a (very) small garrison. DO NOT attempt to unload ANY construction engineer or airfield support people until you can fit them in under the stacking limit. Do continue bringing in supply convoys and unload them as fast as you can; when they are empty start loading troops.

IV. Generic considerations
A. Bombardment TFs should rotate through such that a fully ammo-ed TF is bombarding every turn.
B. Air bombardments of troops in fortified positions are virtually ineffective. Both prep and support of the Slow Grind should focus on air and port to prevent fort buildup and to knock down supplies. The Quick & Dirty needs all the help it can get so air should hit ground units in that case
C. Slow Grind is basically a siege that will probably not end until the defender is out of supply; for this reason Slow Grind needs a longer prep time than Q&D in order to reduce the supply level as much as practical. Prep for Q&D need be no longer than the time required to suppress the CD guns.
D. While it would seem that SG would take longer than Q&D, in fact the recovery time from Q&D will often exceed the time for all but the longest sieges. As soon as you take the island and land the DR force, you will have somewhere around a four to one stacking level; your supplies are going to disappear much faster than you can land them. Ports repair last so you are looking at loading everyone across the beach; it may take a month or longer just to get your starving forces back on ships so you can send them to a rear area to recover; the only good part is you can start prepping them for the next invasion even if they are starving



HansBolter -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/9/2011 9:49:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

- Are there any specific tricks needed to get the troops to load, with supplies, and head out? I *thought* I gave them the right orders but the TF mouse-over said they were 'unloading' at Dutch Harbor, which is what prompted me to post.

Any other wisdom you could share would help too.



If they loaded at DH without a destination set and were also set to unload then they started unloading as soon as they finished loading.

If DH was a waypoint or a intended as a temporary TF holding point and the TF was set to unload then they would unload at DH instead of your final intended destination.

The trick is to set them to not unload if you don't immediately set a destination when ordering them to load. You also want to be sure to be set to "do not unload" if there will be any port or dot hexes that you will be using as waypoints or temporary holding points before proceeding to the invasion site.




jmalter -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/9/2011 10:53:55 PM)

coupla' add'l tech-tips to go along w/ the excellent advice above:

when loading an Amph TF, *ALWAYS* set the TF to "do not load fuel". ughfortunately this button isn't available when loading supplies only. a transport w/ fuel cargo burns rilly well when it takes a hit.

CVE TF plane ops aren't restricted in coastal/shallow waters, so they can run into the invasion hex & provide CAP/ASW.

if available, include an AGC in your AmphTF, it'll improve the unload speed. this ship will always unload last, so create it into a separate TF, load supply or an HQ unit, then set it to merge w/ the main AmphTF. best is to load a 'Force' HQ unit, the game allows this HQ to influence the ground battle even when still embarked. you'll want to give the ForceHQ a mongo leader. generally, an AGC will load an entire HQ LCU, regardless of cargo capacity.

mind your loading, even when you allow for the 20% add'l space for combat loading, it's likely that a goodly portion of your support troops get left behind.

follow your initial invasion force w/ add'l ships - cruisers, DDs and '2nd wave' transports, set to 'do not unload'. As the invasion unloads, cycle its unloaded transports into a new TF, along w/ escorts that have expended their main-armament ammo. then add new escorts and transports from the 2nd group into the original AmphTF.




richlove -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/14/2011 5:51:25 PM)

Thanks all. Worked like a charm. Follow up question:
- I spent 2 days unloading (and suffering under bombardment attacks) before staging my own attack. Each day the amphib TF had to run the CD guns and I lost a ship because of that. Standard behavior? I could have probably attacked on the 1st turn but wasn't sure what I was facing.

Next stop: Attu.



Shark7 -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/14/2011 8:02:00 PM)

It also depends on how much opposition you are expecting.

If I am expecting heavy resistance, with surface force and air assets at the target then.

1. Send in a surface combat TF or two the turn before the landing to clear those out.
2. Send in a Bombard TF the day of the landing to do the bombard thing.
3. Send in a second surface combat TF the day of the landing to clear out anything that might be left.
4. Use a CVTF 3-4 hexes off the landing area to provide air cover and absorb the LBA attacks.
5. I tend to use multiple landing TFs just to keep from having all my eggs in one basket. Definately having some DMS in the Surface TFs and landing TF will help clear mines.

As you can see, an opposed amphibious operation can turn quite complicated.



Knyvet -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/15/2011 4:17:00 AM)

Don't forget to throw a minesweeper tf in the mix at a early point - it feels pretty good when you read a line saying it cleared a "path" through a minefield.

I usually have a seperate small minesweepering task force, but have always wondered: If I have a AM in a TF set to an Amphib mission, will the minesweeper still sweep and clear a path for the TF? If so, is it just the destination hex (like a Local Minesweeping TF) or 7 hexes (like a Minesweeping TF)?

The manual says at 6.62 "valid ships in a Minesweeping or Local Minesweeping TF, sweep mines". It seems reflect that a AM in an amphib task force will not sweep any mines.

Thoughts?[&:]

[Japanese suicide diver and pole mine type 5 (pic from museum display)]




[image]local://upfiles/33048/FF2650591B9D4B6CAD6EB969348B4809.jpg[/image]



jmalter -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/15/2011 4:31:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

Thanks all. Worked like a charm. Follow up question:
- I spent 2 days unloading (and suffering under bombardment attacks) before staging my own attack. Each day the amphib TF had to run the CD guns and I lost a ship because of that. Standard behavior? I could have probably attacked on the 1st turn but wasn't sure what I was facing.

Next stop: Attu.

Standard behavior? Yes! after all, the enemy's allowed to shoot at you. Some of his shots are gonna hit!

i hope you monitored the combat reports during the 1st day, & carefully checked the AmphTF before the 2nd day began. Doubtless, some of your gun-type ships used up all their gun ammo - the thing to do is, create a new EscortTF, consisting of ammo-expended escorts, empty phib-types, and any badly-damaged ships (should you want to try & save them). those escorts should still have plenty of AA ammo. if you don't have air & sea superiority, you'll want to keep this EscortTF in its present hex. then, transfer full-ammo cruiser/DD types from your follow-up SCTF into the original AmphTF - during the next day, their gun power will fire to suppress the enemy trying to shoot your transports & de-barking troopers.

it was probably prudent that you didn't set attack orders after the day 1 unload. you look at the contents of your transports, and if significant fighting elements still haven't unloaded, it's often better to wait for them. in some special cases, your troops will auto-attack immediately. this happens at Atoll targets, or if you've achieved a mongo AssaultValue advantage over the defenders.

every Amph assault is different, it's a fascinating part of the game. here's an idea: set the destination (do not retire) of your amph/support TFs to 1 hex away from their target. once they've arrived there, set them to fullspeed/unload in the targeted hex for the following turn. it's my belief that, having to move only 1/3 or 1/4 of their 3 or 4 hex movement allowance in the ensuing night turn, the AmphTF will be able to unload a proportionally larger percentage of its cargo during its 1st unload phase than it would if it'd had to move 2 or more hexes into the target hex before unloading.

all these suggestions aren't hard & fast rules, though. you've got to balance them against the threat you're up against, and that threat won't be confined to enemy assets based in the target hex! if you strip DD's from your covering TFs to provide add'l gunfire support to the AmphTF, those TFs will lose capability against enemy air/surf/sub reaction.

hope to hear more about how you're doing & what you've learned. Onwards to Attu!



bk19@mweb.co.za -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/15/2011 12:11:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
The TF should stay at moderate range (15k+ yards) to avoid mines. Based upon the results it may be necessary to delay the invasion to provide more suppression of CD guns


How do you go about arranging a bombardment TF to fire from a predetermined range?



Quixote -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/15/2011 12:21:37 PM)

Adjust the minimum bomardment range

[image]local://upfiles/29916/A0D3200C62D54ACCA773C463E0EBB0D4.jpg[/image]



bk19@mweb.co.za -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/15/2011 12:29:00 PM)

Well... waddaya know.... WIDRTFM.... if still in doubt read the screen.....

Thanks you.....




richlove -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/16/2011 6:53:18 PM)

Out of curiosity, is that number in thousands of yards?



jmalter -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/16/2011 7:48:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove
Out of curiosity, is that number in thousands of yards?

yes.

presumably, a lower range increases the accuracy of the bombTF, but i'm not certain. it will expose the TF to add'l CD guns.

primarily, keep the range high enough so your AA guns (40mm & smaller) don't throw all their ammo at the beach. similarly you can set the TF's escorts (DD & smaller) to bombard (or not) from the 'choose mission' screen.

you'll likely want to retain 40mm ammo (& mebbe also escort 5" ammo) for protection against enemy air, MTBs and/or SCTFs as you withdraw.



bigred -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/17/2011 1:41:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove
Out of curiosity, is that number in thousands of yards?

yes.

presumably, a lower range increases the accuracy of the bombTF, but i'm not certain. it will expose the TF to add'l CD guns.

primarily, keep the range high enough so your AA guns (40mm & smaller) don't throw all their ammo at the beach. similarly you can set the TF's escorts (DD & smaller) to bombard (or not) from the 'choose mission' screen.

you'll likely want to retain 40mm ammo (& mebbe also escort 5" ammo) for protection against enemy air, MTBs and/or SCTFs as you withdraw.

Also set the ship air unit to night recon of the bombardment sight...this seems to be a real kicker for me.



jmalter -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/17/2011 6:09:02 AM)

sometimes i even remember to set the float-plane boys to night Recon @ the target - usually at 6,000'.

at best, i'll get 1/3rd of the ships showing the 'acting as spotter for' msg, even in the best weather conditions.

prob is, these 1-4 plane units get my least attention. beyond occaisionally giving them plane replacements, and keeping them staffed w/ an additional pilot, i just don't pay much attention to them.

they're last on my list for getting a decent leader, & are rarely given decent pilots. sometimes i'll toss a high ASW skill guy into a float-plane unit, but it's pretty rare & pretty random.

they deserve closer attention, but it's just too labor-intensive for me. the optimal float-plane pilot riding on a BB/CA needs high exp, & should be high-skill in NavS, ASW & Recon. but they train *slowly* when embarked, & are often prevented from flying by weather, further slowing exp gain.

if i had crack Recon pilots flying my BB/CA float-planes, mebbe i'd get better results from my bombTFs. but providing those pilots has always been dead-last in my queue.



Shark7 -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/17/2011 4:54:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

sometimes i even remember to set the float-plane boys to night Recon @ the target - usually at 6,000'.

at best, i'll get 1/3rd of the ships showing the 'acting as spotter for' msg, even in the best weather conditions.

prob is, these 1-4 plane units get my least attention. beyond occaisionally giving them plane replacements, and keeping them staffed w/ an additional pilot, i just don't pay much attention to them.

they're last on my list for getting a decent leader, & are rarely given decent pilots. sometimes i'll toss a high ASW skill guy into a float-plane unit, but it's pretty rare & pretty random.

they deserve closer attention, but it's just too labor-intensive for me. the optimal float-plane pilot riding on a BB/CA needs high exp, & should be high-skill in NavS, ASW & Recon. but they train *slowly* when embarked, & are often prevented from flying by weather, further slowing exp gain.

if i had crack Recon pilots flying my BB/CA float-planes, mebbe i'd get better results from my bombTFs. but providing those pilots has always been dead-last in my queue.



Actually for this mission, having a CS available (particularly for IJN) or an escort carrier with recon capable planes should be ideal. The groups are large enough that you only have to mess with setting 1 group instead of half the groups in the TF. Using one of those, you can simply set 1 or 2 groups to the night recon mission on 90/10 recon/rest and it *should* be sufficient. I believe I will test this theory out today and make sure it does work like I want it to...never really paid much attention to it before. [;)]



jmalter -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/18/2011 1:57:56 AM)

the spotting msg gave me the impression that a floatplane spots for only one ship (presumably the one that launched it).

i'd like to know if it spots for the entire TF, & whether or not your 'recon CVE' idea works!



Shark7 -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/18/2011 4:16:07 PM)

Well I sent a CS along (20 A/C) all set to spot for the fleet. I got the best bombardment I've gotten in a long time against Wenchow with better than average port, airfield and industry hits. Jury is still out though, and I'm not really interested in setting up a more controlled test.



michaelm75au -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/19/2011 3:20:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knyvet

Don't forget to throw a minesweeper tf in the mix at a early point - it feels pretty good when you read a line saying it cleared a "path" through a minefield.

I usually have a seperate small minesweepering task force, but have always wondered: If I have a AM in a TF set to an Amphib mission, will the minesweeper still sweep and clear a path for the TF? If so, is it just the destination hex (like a Local Minesweeping TF) or 7 hexes (like a Minesweeping TF)?

The manual says at 6.62 "valid ships in a Minesweeping or Local Minesweeping TF, sweep mines". It seems reflect that a AM in an amphib task force will not sweep any mines.

Thoughts?[&:]


If the TF has a minesweeper, then it will attempt to sweep mines when it detects a minefield entering a hex. Same as a DD would, but with better performance.
A dedicated minesweeping TF should do a better job though.



michaelm75au -> RE: N00b question about Amphib operations (9/19/2011 3:29:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

the spotting msg gave me the impression that a floatplane spots for only one ship (presumably the one that launched it).

i'd like to know if it spots for the entire TF, & whether or not your 'recon CVE' idea works!


IIRC, float plane spotting for bombardment is simplified in that one plane will act as spotter for the TF. Think "dropping flares at night" to light up target - all ships in range would benefit.



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