Its all a bit of a 'faff' (Full Version)

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Roger Neilson II -> Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/21/2011 10:25:03 AM)

Ok, currently if I want to see what the stats are for an enemy force, say a Division, I fire up AE, I load up a game as if I am Japanese and I look for the data....then I come out of that and go back to my game and apply the knowledge I have just gained. I'm not getting accurate information I know - nor in real life would I be, but as in real life SHQ would have some number crunchers who would know the sort of force composition ideally an enemy unit 'aspired to'. I can do the same for an enemy ship.

But this is a messy workflow..... am I missing a much simpler way of getting this information - and possibly having it easily to hand to look up when I need it?


Roger



gradenko2k -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/21/2011 12:26:36 PM)

You might be able to output the data from WITP Tracker



Alfred -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/21/2011 5:26:45 PM)

Roger,

I didn't quite understand exactly what information you have in mind. Is it enemy TOE? Or equivalent Assault Value out of moused over details? Or something else?

Ditto for enemy ships, isn't the ingame naval ship database ["v" shortcut key] sufficient for your purposes.

Alfred



Misconduct -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/21/2011 6:07:39 PM)

I use WITPtracker to give me the AV and formation % for each unit as well as the Moral and Disruption.




Roger Neilson II -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/21/2011 6:24:28 PM)

ha I am really sometimes so short sighted, of course the ship database would do that for me. Thanks.

However its the theoretical max AV and TOE of land units that I can't find any way of getting without doing what i said in the earlier post.

Roger



Roger Neilson II -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/21/2011 6:26:05 PM)

How do you do that for the enemy forces?

When I look at Tracker it only - rightly - gives my my forces details.

Roger



Alfred -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/21/2011 7:53:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

ha I am really sometimes so short sighted, of course the ship database would do that for me. Thanks.

However its the theoretical max AV and TOE of land units that I can't find any way of getting without doing what i said in the earlier post.

Roger


Ah, well if you are satisfied with ball park figures.[;)]

IJN divisions generally range from a low 400 AV to about 470 AV. As a rule of thumb you can just treat an Axis or Allied (Chinese excluded) division as being about 450 AV. A fully built up Chinese division/corps is going to be about 730 AV.

Brigades are about 1/3 size of a division. Battalions are less than 1/9 the size of a division because they lack the division's HQ assets. Again as a ball park figure, treat a battalion as having 30-40 AV.

One type of Japanese LCU you need to have a different set of assumptions is the Naval Guard unit which is commonly deployed as an atoll garrison. Their AV is about 60. Due to stacking limits, it would be rare to find a Japanese owned size 1 island garrisoned with as much as 160-180 AV.

As to the actual devices themselves, I wouldn't worry too much. Of course they are extremely important as they affect the critical firepower stage, but that is something which is hidden within the game engine. Definitely, for your purposes, the single most unit device will be the infantry squad which is upgraded yearly. To get an idea of the respective firepower differences between the different yearly infantry squads, you can just open up the ingame plane and weapon database ["d" short cut].

Alfred



n01487477 -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/22/2011 2:03:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

How do you do that for the enemy forces?

When I look at Tracker it only - rightly - gives my my forces details.

Roger

Playing PBEM - you can't or shouldn't. But you could load a fresh scenario and then print/look at Tracker to see the other side forces...



Misconduct -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/22/2011 2:23:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

How do you do that for the enemy forces?

When I look at Tracker it only - rightly - gives my my forces details.

Roger

Playing PBEM - you can't or shouldn't. But you could load a fresh scenario and then print/look at Tracker to see the other side forces...


I have Tracker installed Twice so I can look at a PBEM and a "Stock Scenario" or Scenario with the mod I am using.

Generally I look at the combat results of a bombardment or land battle so I can see what units I am focusing on, then goto Tracker to look at the AV of each unit (with what TOE).

Pretty much what I do.



JeffroK -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/22/2011 2:30:46 AM)

How do we define gamey again??



Misconduct -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/22/2011 2:55:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

How do we define gamey again??


So the information is freely available, It's not an exploit. An Exploit and Gamey would be to use paratroopers or something small to cross a river, see the units - then adjust your AV.




Roger Neilson II -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/22/2011 7:40:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

How do we define gamey again??


Whoa, I'm not after any special information, even though there are ways of finding things out that are not realistic I would not intentionally use them. All I am after is the simplest way of getting common information when I need it. As has been pointed out by Alfred, the ships database is available with one keypress - likewise the performance minutiae of every airplane in the game. However the basic compositions of ground forces are not.

I have a pretty good idea of the forces I command, but I play exclusively Allied so what the Japanese forces composition are I have little knowledge, and short of playing that side as well, there seems no easy way of finding anything out. As this information is in the game but not simple to see, I'm just trying to find a way of seeing theoretical strengths......

Anyone who plays both sides has this information by the fact they do play both sides........

There is loads of information that in reality neither side would have..... that's the nature of the game. I'm just becoming very aware that some of it is far easier to se than others - if that's WAD then fine, but if its simply 'the way things are' then I'm after a solution to balance up the arms of service information. I've read enough of the forum over the years to know that most players (careful, that's a massive assertion) are aware of how many enemy divisions there are and have a pretty good idea of where they are - and therefore where there may be danger lurking.

I'm also aware of many discussions where the exact number of replacement planes in a month is cited etc etc.....

I wonder how many playersof the Japanese side plan their opening move whilst deliberately ignoring anything they know abut Allied dispositions?

I like an 'even playing field' - I'm simply after a smoothness of information access which does not seem to be there at present in the way I approach the game. If anyone can explain to me why I can know the infinite details of a ships, or a plane's performance, but not the equivalent land unit's theoretical 'stats' then I apologise for being 'gamey' but I feel there will be a lot of others who may also have to apologise.

Roger 👻



Roger Neilson II -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/22/2011 7:53:30 AM)

quote:

I have Tracker installed Twice so I can look at a PBEM and a "Stock Scenario" or Scenario with the mod I am using.

Generally I look at the combat results of a bombardment or land battle so I can see what units I am focusing on, then goto Tracker to look at the AV of each unit (with what TOE).

Pretty much what I do.


Seems fair enough to me. Though its still a bit of a 'faff' doing that.

I know its within the game constraints, but it does stretch reality a little to get the sort of information from bombardments and bombing we do in the game. There is no way to avoid this though - you can't 'unsee' it.

In land combat its relatively easy to recce the site of enemy bodies and get info on their unit insignia, question prisoners, and observe through field glasses. I do have a problem of understanding how a CA bombarding at night can know what units it hit, and what casualties and damage it caused and the damage assessment of the facilities....... likewise a bombing run can somehow see the same in formation.

Roger



Roger Neilson II -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/22/2011 7:56:35 AM)

quote:

Ah, well if you are satisfied with ball park figures.


Given my own approach to playing this game that's all I should be able to access really.

Roger



JeffroK -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/23/2011 5:23:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

How do we define gamey again??


So the information is freely available, It's not an exploit. An Exploit and Gamey would be to use paratroopers or something small to cross a river, see the units - then adjust your AV.




IMVHO, opening up a seperate game from the other side to gain the EXACT information goes far beyond what would be normal. Of course, all sideds had intel on the enemy OOB & TOE but in this theatre probably had 50-75% accuracy. I've reviewed the Intel reports posted by the Australian Army and it had gaping holes.

Dugout Dougs Intel officer couldnt look into an alternate timeline to look at the IJA OOB/TOE, he made WASG's as to the numbers, other commanders used Recon and Human Intel to fill out the picture.

It is precisly an exploitation of the system in that you can play with God as your IO.

But if your PBEM opponent is happy with this , good luck to both of you.



Misconduct -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/23/2011 5:38:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

My opponent can speak freely for my actions, we have played 3 PBEM's together and this is now our 4th - 2 games were close and on the previous PBEM I had him tied up till 5/45 then lost.

I recently started a new PBEM with John as the Allies, interestingly enough I recall more about the japanese industry/conversions then I do the allied, in fact I have over 10 pages of documents from my previous Japanese PBEM - conversion time tables, how many ships can become a tanker, max aircraft frames output in any particular month (assuming he follows the same time line as me)

I don't think he'd start a 4th PBEM if he knew for a second I would "cheapshot" him in any way, more often then none I call him in regards to something I feel is gamey.





gradenko2k -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/23/2011 9:48:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMVHO, opening up a seperate game from the other side to gain the EXACT information goes far beyond what would be normal. Of course, all sideds had intel on the enemy OOB & TOE but in this theatre probably had 50-75% accuracy. I've reviewed the Intel reports posted by the Australian Army and it had gaping holes.

Dugout Dougs Intel officer couldnt look into an alternate timeline to look at the IJA OOB/TOE, he made WASG's as to the numbers, other commanders used Recon and Human Intel to fill out the picture.

It is precisly an exploitation of the system in that you can play with God as your IO.

But if your PBEM opponent is happy with this , good luck to both of you.

I think the point is that you can already, without opening up a different game or use of a 3rd-party program, see the exact stats of enemy aircraft and ships. I bet the Allies had little-to-no idea of what the Yamato was capable of when they first encountered it, but for the Allied player, it's right there in plain sight, even if we disregard any a priori knowledge from history.

If we're already able to see such exacting detail about naval and air forces, then being able to check on land forces isn't all that much of a stretch.



Misconduct -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/23/2011 10:15:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMVHO, opening up a seperate game from the other side to gain the EXACT information goes far beyond what would be normal. Of course, all sideds had intel on the enemy OOB & TOE but in this theatre probably had 50-75% accuracy. I've reviewed the Intel reports posted by the Australian Army and it had gaping holes.

Dugout Dougs Intel officer couldnt look into an alternate timeline to look at the IJA OOB/TOE, he made WASG's as to the numbers, other commanders used Recon and Human Intel to fill out the picture.

It is precisly an exploitation of the system in that you can play with God as your IO.

But if your PBEM opponent is happy with this , good luck to both of you.

I think the point is that you can already, without opening up a different game or use of a 3rd-party program, see the exact stats of enemy aircraft and ships. I bet the Allies had little-to-no idea of what the Yamato was capable of when they first encountered it, but for the Allied player, it's right there in plain sight, even if we disregard any a priori knowledge from history.

If we're already able to see such exacting detail about naval and air forces, then being able to check on land forces isn't all that much of a stretch.


Most of the time you don't get a chance to peak at the land forces on a particular base, only if a landing has been a disaster before - however you still get the intel on certain units being placed in certain areas - like right now my opponent has the Imperial Guard stationed in Cebu, I can understand why - previous game I loved to attack (as allied) through philippines.

I know for fact thats one of the toughest japanese divisions without even looking at the information, what do I do, choose to ignore it and send a Raider bat. to engage them?



JeffroK -> RE: Its all a bit of a 'faff' (9/23/2011 11:02:46 PM)

Doh, of course you use the intel provided within the game.

The names of divisions plus the rough estimates of AV are an attempt to replicate the efforts of the intelligence men.

Assuming FOW on the intel screen hasnt misled you or your opponent been sneaky with splitting units.

One of the bigger problems when assaulting the Marianas and other islands was the dearth of intel, Dugout Doug was very lucky in a few landings in the New Guinea area that the IJA was incompetent and failed to gather enough troops for a counterattack.

I would put in a vote that I couldnt see the opposition data (maybe if you select FOW this is unavailable)
You could learn this from experience rather than have it available immediatly, but that would be lots of work for michaelm.

But this is also dependent on your approach to the game.

Mine is to appreciate the problems and options available to the leaders at the time, rather than an all out optimize the use of my forces to 110% of their capacity and beat an opponent and dont want to play the role of counting exactly how many heads/rivets or signal flags the other guy has.





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