Experimental map data file with stacking limits (Full Version)

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Andrew Brown -> Experimental map data file with stacking limits (9/28/2011 1:24:08 PM)

Here is a map data file (pwhexe.dat) I have created, which has stacking limit data added to all land hexes (except the major off map bases) whether bases are present or not. This file is for testing purposes, designed to be used with the "stock" official AE map.

The stacking limits are tied to the terrain type, plus the existence of roads, railways and rivers (which all boost the stacking limit values).

Currently the limits are only visible in base mouseovers. Hopefully the code can be changed at some point to also show the values on the base screens (which still show "unlimited" for non-island bases) and the LCU summary window (for use in non-base hexes).

This is an experimental file. Its effect on the game are not well understood! Please feel free to experiment with this map data file. Any comments can be added here.

Be sure to make a backup copy of your existing pwhexe.dat file before making use of this one.

Andrew



SuluSea -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (9/28/2011 4:40:05 PM)

Hi Andrew thanks for all the work, you guys are really keeping this game fresh and deserve big props for it. [:)][:)][:)] I love the stacking limits idea BTW..



John 3rd -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (9/28/2011 5:25:28 PM)

Not too sure of that Footer SuluSea! [8D]

Andrew: Your work is greatly appreciated. If this works we will incorporate it into the RA and Perfect War Mods.



JeffroK -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (9/29/2011 8:43:23 AM)

Hi Andrew,
I have downloaded the file, I got a message about using the new pwhex file but mouseovers show nothing (In an existing game)

is there any other hint to see that its working?



Andrew Brown -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (9/29/2011 9:08:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Hi Andrew,
I have downloaded the file, I got a message about using the new pwhex file but mouseovers show nothing (In an existing game)

is there any other hint to see that its working?



It has to be used with the latest beta exe file. Are you using that?

Andrew



JeffroK -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (9/30/2011 1:32:07 AM)

That would be the problem[8D]

But I had that set up with the extended map, I'll set up another copy.

Thanks Andrew



inqistor -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/1/2011 1:28:43 PM)

COOL!

Are overstack penalties similar to islands?

It actually seems, that your numbers are too generous (assuming bases do not generate extra stacking bonus). Especially central Australia.
Kohima offensive was something around the lines, that Japan could supply only ONE Division by road, so I would say ANY rough/jungle/mountain/swamp terrain WITHOUT road should not be able to supply Division.

And considering Kokoda, any mountain/rough-jungle should not be able to support even Regiment, so like 5000 for this terrain.



SuluSea -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/1/2011 6:02:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Not too sure of that Footer SuluSea! [8D]



It's a work in progress John.[:)] No footers stay too long for me.[;)]



JeffroK -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/1/2011 11:29:54 PM)

Looking good a whole week into a new campaign.

Already looking at the numbers I have to defend locations in Malaya.

I think the major affect will be seen in late 42-43 when multiple divisions start to get together.



drw61 -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/2/2011 1:09:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

That would be the problem[8D]

But I had that set up with the extended map, I'll set up another copy.

Thanks Andrew



Jeffk, if you want to use the extended map, there is a working version of the extended map data with staking limits at this site.

https://sites.google.com/site/extendedartwitpae/home/extended-map-data---stacking-limits

Daryl





DaveConn -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/6/2011 12:04:28 AM)

I see stacking limits on the mouseover for a base or dot hex, but nothing to indicate stacking limits for a vacant hex. Is this WAD? Are there stacking limits for non-base, non-dot hexes? Any help appreciated; thanks!

--Dave



witpqs -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/6/2011 12:46:09 AM)

From what I read earlier it is normal until and unless the program is updated to show them.



JWE -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/6/2011 4:32:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveConn
I see stacking limits on the mouseover for a base or dot hex, but nothing to indicate stacking limits for a vacant hex. Is this WAD? Are there stacking limits for non-base, non-dot hexes? Any help appreciated; thanks!

--Dave

Yes it is WAD. One does not see anything on mouseovers of non-base hexes anyway.

It's still a work in process, so the current SL algorithm would be useless. Once the final values get defined, I'm sure somebody will post the matrix. Once you have that, a mouseover on a base will give you all ya need to know about everything else; and it doesn't change a whole lot.



khyberbill -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/6/2011 7:51:18 PM)

quote:

If this works we will incorporate it into the RA and Perfect War Mods.

That would be great. Keep control of those Chinese and Japanese Death Stars!



JeffroK -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/7/2011 2:02:33 AM)

In late Dec 41, still working without any probs, although I havent streched the stacking limits yet. Maybe PH will be under pressure soon.
Importantly nothing else seems broken by the change.

Question 1.  Is the stacking limit a total for the hex or for each side?
Question 2. I one side holds the hex and the base, does the competing side share the same limits or are they at the base stacking limit??



JWE -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/7/2011 4:04:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
In late Dec 41, still working without any probs, although I havent streched the stacking limits yet. Maybe PH will be under pressure soon.
Importantly nothing else seems broken by the change.

Question 1.  Is the stacking limit a total for the hex or for each side?
Question 2. I one side holds the hex and the base, does the competing side share the same limits or are they at the base stacking limit??

Very nice to get that input. Thank you.

The new SLs for a hex work just like the stacking limits for Island Size. They are a total for the hex.

There is no bonus for the hex including a base. A hex SL is a hex SL. The presence of a base in a hex provides an extrinsic benefit to the side holding the base, even if the hex is 'overstacked'. The primary effects of overstacking are increased fatigue, disruption and greatly increased supply consumption (for both sides). The owner of a base has access to any supply stockpiles at the base and has the ability to use the base as a supply reception point (from ships if base is a port; from planes if base is an airfield). The attacker must rely on the overland supply flow model, or continuous amphib resupply TFs.

[ed] quick note, there's a default routine that Michael put in place that ensures Very Small Islands have the nominal 6,000 troop SL, no matter what the algorithm says that hex type "should" have. So looking at certain hexes with Dave's new pwhexe editor can be a bit misleading. Always check the Island Size switch and if it's Very Small, the IS switch will control no matter what is in the SL field. Other (larger) Island Sizes don't go to default because the default values are darn close to the algorithm values so those are used instead.



witpqs -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/7/2011 4:47:39 PM)

Quick note, guys: the island-size stacking limits have always been per side, not total for the hex. So when you say they work just like stacking limits for island size, I'm assuming that's what you mean, John?




JWE -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/7/2011 5:43:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Quick note, guys: the island-size stacking limits have always been per side, not total for the hex. So when you say they work just like stacking limits for island size, I'm assuming that's what you mean, John?

Yes. Don't have the latest source for this, but as far as I can determine, the nastiness algorithm is applied as a result of an SL check. It is the SL check routine that has been tweaked to accommodate the new SL values. Nastiness 'evaluation' and 'execution' works as it always has. There's just more opportunities to be nasty.

Not sure you are quite correct about island-size stacking limits being per side. Could be wrong, so will dig deeper. Obviously, that's a major determinant. We just made assumptions without checking. Clearly something that needs to be better understood. Thanks; good Q. Definitely get back to you with a hard answer.



Andrew Brown -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/8/2011 12:43:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
Yes. Don't have the latest source for this, but as far as I can determine, the nastiness algorithm is applied as a result of an SL check. It is the SL check routine that has been tweaked to accommodate the new SL values. Nastiness 'evaluation' and 'execution' works as it always has. There's just more opportunities to be nasty.

Not sure you are quite correct about island-size stacking limits being per side. Could be wrong, so will dig deeper. Obviously, that's a major determinant. We just made assumptions without checking. Clearly something that needs to be better understood. Thanks; good Q. Definitely get back to you with a hard answer.


From memory, the island size stacking limits are applied per side. But Michael can give a definitive answer. The new hex limits are applied using the same process, so should operate in the same way.

The way it is meant to work for island is - the smaller of the two stacking limits (island size vs the new per hex limits) is the one that will be applied.

Andrew



JeffroK -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/8/2011 8:09:29 AM)

Thank Andrew
The presence of a base in a hex provides an extrinsic benefit to the side holding the base
This is what i meant to ask.



inqistor -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/8/2011 8:30:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Thank Andrew
The presence of a base in a hex provides an extrinsic benefit to the side holding the base
This is what i meant to ask.

Maybe now base owner will have at last advantage, during fight, at all those small starving spots in Burma? [:D]



JWE -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/8/2011 11:38:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
From memory, the island size stacking limits are applied per side. But Michael can give a definitive answer. The new hex limits are applied using the same process, so should operate in the same way.

The way it is meant to work for island is - the smaller of the two stacking limits (island size vs the new per hex limits) is the one that will be applied.

Andrew

Yep, Island size is limits are per side. So SLs are per side.

Can't do much quick responding for a couple days. Bought a Harley and am doing the H-D Motorcycle Safety Course. Sat and Sun. Starts at 0700 [sm=00000116.gif] and goes all day long. Woof !!!



JeffroK -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/9/2011 2:02:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
From memory, the island size stacking limits are applied per side. But Michael can give a definitive answer. The new hex limits are applied using the same process, so should operate in the same way.

The way it is meant to work for island is - the smaller of the two stacking limits (island size vs the new per hex limits) is the one that will be applied.

Andrew

Yep, Island size is limits are per side. So SLs are per side.

Can't do much quick responding for a couple days. Bought a Harley and am doing the H-D Motorcycle Safety Course. Sat and Sun. Starts at 0700 [sm=00000116.gif] and goes all day long. Woof !!!


2nd childhood setting in![:'(]



Alfred -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/9/2011 4:54:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

... Can't do much quick responding for a couple days. Bought a Harley and am doing the H-D Motorcycle Safety Course. Sat and Sun. Starts at 0700 [sm=00000116.gif] and goes all day long. Woof !!!


Typical selfish human reaction. Have you thought about Beaudy? It won't be easy for him to ride as a pillon passenger. Mind you, if you can surmount that issue, he would probably OD with all those newly available fragances.[:)]

Alfred



JWE -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/9/2011 10:04:58 PM)

Ok, passed the course and got my card. Got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license, and a MSF discount on insurance. Pick up the bike Tuesday, after the holiday, and bring it home. WOOF !!!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Typical selfish human reaction. Have you thought about Beaudy? It won't be easy for him to ride as a pillon passenger. Mind you, if you can surmount that issue, he would probably OD with all those newly available fragances.[:)]

Alfred

Are you kidding? Harley has three different kinds of dog cozys that fit my bike. The local Baldwin County Hog chapter has a seminar on gear and training. There's one couple who have done 10,000 miles with their pet doberman. Have no fear, Beaudy is "on the bike" for roadtrips.

[ed] there's a dog harness that has to be used with all the different cozys. If I take Beaudy through the training class, I can get Beaudy a denim harness cover with his own special colors ... "Beast Rider MC"; how cool is that?



Buck Beach -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/10/2011 1:15:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, passed the course and got my card. Got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license, and a MSF discount on insurance. Pick up the bike Tuesday, after the holiday, and bring it home. WOOF !!!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Typical selfish human reaction. Have you thought about Beaudy? It won't be easy for him to ride as a pillon passenger. Mind you, if you can surmount that issue, he would probably OD with all those newly available fragances.

Alfred

Are you kidding? Harley has three different kinds of dog cozys that fit my bike. The local Baldwin County Hog chapter has a seminar on gear and training. There's one couple who have done 10,000 miles with their pet doberman. Have no fear, Beaudy is "on the bike" for roadtrips.

[ed] there's a dog harness that has to be used with all the different cozys. If I take Beaudy through the training class, I can get Beaudy a denim harness cover with his own special colors ... "Beast Rider MC"; how cool is that?


Damn JWE those bikes are a young man's game! Doesn't take much of a screw up or a senior moment to turn you into a vegetable or worse. For Christ sakes be super careful (at least until you are all done improving DaBabes[;)]



Alfred -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/11/2011 3:38:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

... There's one couple who have done 10,000 miles with their pet doberman. Have no fear, Beaudy is "on the bike" for roadtrips ...



Let me guess. They didn't bother making their HD secure when they went inside for a coffee on the 10k travels. The downside was that the doberman didn't make any new friends. For some unknowable reason, people hesitated in approaching him.

Seriously didn't know about the American after market add ons. Back here we only very occasionally see a kelpie or cattle dog riding freestyle on a bike. Usually they are catching a lift home from a day's work rounding up the sheep.[:)] Don't usually see any riding pillon on urban roads.

Alfred



JWE -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/11/2011 10:13:11 PM)

Oh, groin. Well I've already OT'd this thread to heck already, but I'll move the response to THE THREAD over in the War Room. C'mon over and chat.



herwin -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/20/2011 1:13:59 PM)

Some old notes on stacking and road/rail capacity in Italy:

1. Lowland limits: a major highway could supply a reinforced corps (3 divisions plus an armoured brigade and an AGRA) on a 8-mile front. Mud reduced that to 70%.
2. Hills/woods: about 90% of those figures.
3. Mountains/forest: about 40% of those figures.
4. A minor road reduced those figures to 60% times the base.
5. Lowland paths: about the same as a minor road.
6. Hilly/wooded paths: about 30%.
7. Mountain/forest paths: unsupplied.
8. Swamps: about 40%.
9. Mountain or light units on paths: about the same as a minor road.

RR line capacities were 2500-5000 tons/day.

2.5 ton trucks had an effective long-term payload of about 3.2 tons. To move 1200 tons/day with a 30 hour turnaround took 16x2.5 ton companies (36 trucks operating, 12 in maintenance).

Pipelines were much more efficient than trucks or rail.



JWE -> RE: Experimental map data file with stacking limits (10/21/2011 4:01:06 PM)

Quick caution on 1108q9. It contains activation for nationality code 41 (a good thing), but also contains different cross checks for base terrain vs island size stacking limits.

Big pow-wow on settling this. Two or three different ways of doing it and, wouldn't ya know it, ended up implementing a fourth [:D][:D]

Now it's settled, conforming to it is easy, but the current stacking limit pwhexes won't show realistic island size stacking limits. Originally done bottom-up, but 1108q9 checks top-down. Woof !!

So give us a day or so to do the nasty and we should have some good looking (and hopefully finalized) map data files with stacking limits. [8D]

Ciao. John



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