RE: waw update (Full Version)

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stone10 -> RE: waw update (10/24/2011 1:23:15 AM)

at guns and arties cost manpower now?



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (10/24/2011 3:38:20 AM)

only in this updated version by bwheatly.

I really really like his ideas , its a good way of keeping the number of units down and really adds another layer of planning it just needs some tweaking.
the way it is right now you will have a ton of PP, fuel and supply and nothing to spend the PP on and not enough units to use all your fuel and supply.

but now that I think of it , maybe he could leave the manpower thing alone and just increase the cost of producing PP.  That would fix everything I believe and do it much simpler.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/24/2011 10:15:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I found the vichy problem some time ago... and Tom corrected it, in a version he sent to me...

Want that version? I believe it has a few other fixes for some errors i found too


I've fixed the vichy issue ernieschwitz. If you know any of the other problems he fixed let me know so i can re-fix them. I've made so many changes from the version Tom pushed out originally that it would be a lot of work to redo all my work. Probably easier just to redo his changes.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/24/2011 10:23:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper
We are running a test game with version 2.1.14

so far the air stack seems off because I am showing a penalty when i have 30 or 40 planes in a hex.

I also have concerns about manpower.

its April 1940 and I am already under 900 as Germany and I haven't even began to gear up for Russia.
every thing takes mp and I am just using 120mp a turn and going backward fast. at this rate in a year i will have 1000's of pp and nothing to spend it on because my mp will be 0.
what good is a factory or raising production when everything cost MP and you run out of MP so fast ? does raising production increase your mp production also ?

at guns and light arty shouldnt cost mp because it takes so many of them to be useful.
naval mp seems high also.

maybe increase the starting MP pool or increase mp production as you capture cities and towns ?

but not even having taken france and to be already concerned about MP dosnt seem right to me.

cheers


The airstack we can tweak up if we need to. It's right now set depending on the size of the city you're in. I think in a city you can fit 10 LB, 20 mix of naval,db or fighter.

For the manpower stuff i'd say load the newest version i put up because it is a complete change to the way manpower works. I took historic data for all combatant countries with their 1939 populations and added that into the game. Then took the data for percentages of men to women. And it also had a break down of % of population that was 18-24,25-36,37-45 etc. So now you'll have a yearly draft class that is about 3% of your manpower with cards to pull in a newer draft class if needed.

Btw 82nd my email is bwheatley@gmail.com lets try to start a testing game with my latest testing version. I'll send it to you when you email me. Was trying to test with someone else but they are too busy to have a quick turn around.



ernieschwitz -> RE: waw update (10/24/2011 10:27:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I found the vichy problem some time ago... and Tom corrected it, in a version he sent to me...

Want that version? I believe it has a few other fixes for some errors i found too


I've fixed the vichy issue ernieschwitz. If you know any of the other problems he fixed let me know so i can re-fix them. I've made so many changes from the version Tom pushed out originally that it would be a lot of work to redo all my work. Probably easier just to redo his changes.


Ok, I will see what i remember he fixed...



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/24/2011 4:52:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

We are running a test game with version 2.1.14

so far the air stack seems off because I am showing a penalty when i have 30 or 40 planes in a hex.

I also have concerns about manpower.

its April 1940 and I am already under 900 as Germany and I haven't even began to gear up for Russia.
every thing takes mp and I am just using 120mp a turn and going backward fast. at this rate in a year i will have 1000's of pp and nothing to spend it on because my mp will be 0.
what good is a factory or raising production when everything cost MP and you run out of MP so fast ? does raising production increase your mp production also ?

at guns and light arty shouldnt cost mp because it takes so many of them to be useful.
naval mp seems high also.

maybe increase the starting MP pool or increase mp production as you capture cities and towns ?

but not even having taken france and to be already concerned about MP dosnt seem right to me.

cheers




The airstack limit for cities is 500. (capitals are more, towns are less etc)
fighters and navalair have 5 stackpoints per.
Level bombers and divebombers have 10 stackpoints per.

Which is what tom had them to start i just enforced the airstacking limits to keep down uber base stacks.
What is the typical amount of planes you would like to see stationed in a town? Also airbases & forts etc all provide airbases to put airunits into.



zzmzzm -> RE: waw update (10/28/2011 8:37:51 AM)

I have see this case:
when Italy join the war , west allies shorebombed the Taranto instantly. Then west allies can do a successful langing battle so all Italy ships were destroyed.

So how about adding 10 or 20 heavy arts in Taranto?



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/28/2011 6:02:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zzmzzm

I have see this case:
when Italy join the war , west allies shorebombed the Taranto instantly. Then west allies can do a successful langing battle so all Italy ships were destroyed.

So how about adding 10 or 20 heavy arts in Taranto?


I added units to taranto and a coastal defense unit.



stone10 -> RE: waw update (10/28/2011 7:10:50 PM)

question on the new factory:

Level 1 aircraft factory cost 200PP and 10 industry MP
Level 2 aircraft factory cost 300PP and 13 industry MP
Level 3 aircraft factory cost 400PP and 16 industry MP
Level 4 aircraft factory cost 500PP and 20 industry MP

I can produce 40 engines with level 1 while 80 engines for level 4 factory. So if I build two lv. 1 factory instead of one lv. 4 factory, I would save 1400PP and 59 industry MP. The same thing is true for other factories like chemical factory. Is it intended to be like this? So what's the point of lv.4 factory?



cveta -> RE: waw update (10/29/2011 9:01:00 AM)

Hi all

I am playing waw for some time now and have some ideas -
1 - Italy - too weak 1st turn. If allships are locaed in one town west may shorebombard tem, reduce rediness and even unload and take the city fist turn. It may force Italy to surender, so maybe opion for Italy surender (when 100 or more pp in Italy landed by west ) shall be removed. Multiple times ppl tray to do exactly this 1st turn.
2 - factories - why not to make that every new factor cost more? 1st 200 pp, seccond 300 pp, third factry 400 and so on. In a game I played Germany I build some 30 factories before we rech 1943
3 - manpower - incrise as minor countries join to the greater power.
4 - coup card - well I like them, but if west coup Yugoslawia and lets say Hungary by luck and Greece thru carrd Germany will have 1 year of hewy fight in Balkan. I spend whole year fighting from wiena to athens. West wake three county and a Greece.
5 - Su is too weak as in standard waw for at. Make some engineers redy and add some facctorris in Ural for a start.

Thouse are my thinking.

Thanks



zzmzzm -> RE: waw update (10/29/2011 1:51:28 PM)

Very like to see that the a coastal defense unit is added in Taranto.
I agree cveta about coup cards and manpower. Since most of Balgan is in mountain, German need much time to conquer there so that is too unhistorical.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/30/2011 4:41:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stone10

question on the new factory:

Level 1 aircraft factory cost 200PP and 10 industry MP
Level 2 aircraft factory cost 300PP and 13 industry MP
Level 3 aircraft factory cost 400PP and 16 industry MP
Level 4 aircraft factory cost 500PP and 20 industry MP

I can produce 40 engines with level 1 while 80 engines for level 4 factory. So if I build two lv. 1 factory instead of one lv. 4 factory, I would save 1400PP and 59 industry MP. The same thing is true for other factories like chemical factory. Is it intended to be like this? So what's the point of lv.4 factory?


Well there are multiple ways to play and strategies. If you didn't goto level 4 factories you'd be missing out on some of the extra structure points.

Struct Points
Lvl 1 - 1000
Lvl 2 - 1500
Lvl 3 - 2000
Lvl 4 - 3000

So the level 4 factories really can take a pounding from strategic bombers.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/30/2011 4:57:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cveta

Hi all

I am playing waw for some time now and have some ideas -
1 - Italy - too weak 1st turn. If allships are locaed in one town west may shorebombard tem, reduce rediness and even unload and take the city fist turn. It may force Italy to surender, so maybe opion for Italy surender (when 100 or more pp in Italy landed by west ) shall be removed. Multiple times ppl tray to do exactly this 1st turn.
2 - factories - why not to make that every new factor cost more? 1st 200 pp, seccond 300 pp, third factry 400 and so on. In a game I played Germany I build some 30 factories before we rech 1943
3 - manpower - incrise as minor countries join to the greater power.
4 - coup card - well I like them, but if west coup Yugoslawia and lets say Hungary by luck and Greece thru carrd Germany will have 1 year of hewy fight in Balkan. I spend whole year fighting from wiena to athens. West wake three county and a Greece.
5 - Su is too weak as in standard waw for at. Make some engineers redy and add some facctorris in Ural for a start.

Thouse are my thinking.

Thanks


1 - Italy - I gave taranto a coastal defense complex in the version i released this morning 1.2.25. If the allies hit that with their ships they are going to regret it.
The idea of italy surrender i had on my list i liked it!

2 - Factories do cost more now.
3 - That is on the todo list. (increase manpower and improve the econ system)
4 - What are you asking for? I also enjoy the cards and it seems like there is enough downside that you might drive the countries into the hands of germany that it's not a total upside. The randomness is a draw.
5 - Yea i agree its hard to defend as the soviets in the latest version i uploaded i give them more PP. If it still needs work i plan on tweaking it. Just remember in the latest version i updated i actually made rivers better defensive landmarks. Tanks will have more trouble crossing and fighting over without a bridge. This should definitely help the soviets.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/30/2011 4:58:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zzmzzm

Very like to see that the a coastal defense unit is added in Taranto.
I agree cveta about coup cards and manpower. Since most of Balgan is in mountain, German need much time to conquer there so that is too unhistorical.


So what if you have to spend a year fighting in the balkans? This version does not have a time limit for the soviet attack nor a requirement on how many PP to have on the soviet border.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/30/2011 4:59:59 PM)

New version was launched

http://www.vrdesigns.nl/atwiki/doku.php?id=waw:world_at_war_rules 2.1.25 

v2.1.25

    changed supply use to be more for ships (x2)
    increased cost of most equipment (this will make uber stacks harder to build and combat more  personal)
    Since research is more expensive now i’ve given germany level 2 in some fields now to help them push through the allies.
    Increased airstack points allowed in an attack to 200 (was 100)
    Fleets are too easily able to obliterate a infantry concentration
        dropped cruiser artillery attack against infantry to 5 (was 15)
        dropped battleship artillery attack against infantry to 15 (was 25)
    turning off fr & soviets wake up by default
    Added the ability to build roads through swamps with a X10 cost (1000EP per hex).
    increased the cost of precursor cards since other costs were increased
    making conscripts/workers battalions cost Industry Power  instead of manpower
    Increased yearly draft rate to 7% from 3%.
    Increased the initial manpower allotment to be  10% of available men.
    Added SNLF for japan as their special troops
    Added shipwarfs level 1 - 4
    Added a Barracks level 1 - 4 that lets you build infantry types.



zzmzzm -> RE: waw update (10/31/2011 2:01:20 AM)

Soviet had build many factories in history. If factory is too expensive, maybe we need to add some factories to Su by events when war last 6 months or more. Else Su cannot begin their counterattack with enough power for ever.



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (10/31/2011 10:36:16 AM)

the Italy surrender cant happen until Tripoli has been taken.
so the west can land as many troops on Italy as they want first turn and it wont do anything until they take Tripoli, at least that's the way its supposed to be.

and by that time germany should have bought the two cards that prevents Italy from ever surrendering.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/31/2011 8:43:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zzmzzm

Soviet had build many factories in history. If factory is too expensive, maybe we need to add some factories to Su by events when war last 6 months or more. Else Su cannot begin their counterattack with enough power for ever.


In my working version i gave the soviets a barracks in siberia to start. I was also thinking about defaulting them to a higher level production (not 50%). But it requires more play testing to see how it feels.



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (12/22/2011 9:34:43 PM)

is there anybody else that would be willing to fix a couple issues with this scenario ? it has a couple that make it unplayable and Bwheatly has been away for over a month now.



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (12/23/2011 7:51:30 AM)

ok ill post the issues here so all can see.

First let me say that after play testing I think Bwheatly has really got this scenario balanced and challenging.
The issues have to do with heavy arty attacks and counter battery fire(with defenders in low mnts), which is something that he didn't change.
But he has changed production so you cant make as many units like heavy arty and he has changed the air stack penalties so you cant attack with a lot of planes
without taking heavy losses which you cant replace easily now.

this has become really noticeable in Greece where the west can get in all the low mnt hexes.
as Germany with heavy arty-II you can do a arty attack on a low mnt. hex with 20 or 30 heavy arty-II and if the west has just 3 or 4 heavy arty-I or even a few light arty defending what happens is you lose 5-10 heavy arty-II in the attack and your heavy arty readiness gets reduced to around 25% making it useless for 2 to 3 turns, and you don't kill any defending arty at all or maybe 1 or 2 if you are lucky.
not only that but your attack doesn't lower his units readiness or entrenchment more than just a little bit if any at all.
So any follow up attack you do is against units still entrenched with full readiness and you fail.
Plus with the battle stack penalties you cant use enough air power or ground forces to win so as the attacker you have nothing that you can use you lower the defenders entrenchment.
Three test games we (myself,Goran, Zhaio and Peter) have played have all ended with Germany unable to take Greece.

So my thoughts are that the counter battery fire from defending arty/units is to potent and should be reduced (by 30-50%) and the defensive value for low mountain hex's is to high and should be reduced (by 25-50%)

The changes to manpower, production and battlestack penalties in this version make it so the Axis cannot just use brute force to win.

if we can get pass this I think this version will be one of the best.

Bwheatly has real life taking him away from working on this and we all know that real life sucks haha [:D]

but we have 4 people trying to test this version and we are simply stuck due to this issue.

thanks for the help and i can email saved games screen shots etc..

cheers.





ernieschwitz -> RE: waw update (1/10/2012 11:52:03 AM)

quote:

So my thoughts are that the counter battery fire from defending arty/units is to potent and should be reduced (by 30-50%) and the defensive value for low mountain hex's is to high and should be reduced (by 25-50%)


HereŽs the thing. There is no setting for reducing the effectiveness of counter battery fire. But as i pointed out in PM, one thing that could be changed could be the entrenchment values for artillery in mountain/low mountain hexes....



ernieschwitz -> RE: waw update (1/11/2012 10:51:03 AM)

Ok,

I had a look at the file, and the problem was not the one i thought it was initially. Artillery units have no entrenchment capability. But... the initial setup of units had artillery units set to 100 entrenchment as default.

I changed that. So hopefully this will fix the problem... If not, IŽll try something else :)



zzmzzm -> RE: waw update (1/26/2012 3:23:15 AM)

Some advices based on the Waw_atg_v2.1.26.99.
1.I can attack france in 1940-4 and occupy Paris in the same turn. Then with the help of vichy card , German can got all France in 1940-4 with none of West Allies troops can retreat from France. So where is Dunkerk?
If we can bring 2 more inf division into Paris, this problem will be solved. Actually German can attack France very easily so I also suggest the readiness of France troops set to 70% not 50%. Since now the France can not wake up early, this can not cause much more difficuly for German. German will get paris in 3 turns after they attack France.

2.How can a Europe city product much more than a German city? I suggest All Europe city and Non_Europe city can not have more than 100% productivity.
Espacially in this version the France cities only have 50% production.

3.Coast defence is too powerful. It will be better if Coast defence ability is halved. And it will be more interesting if Coast defence can be produced.

4.Japan has been reinforced much . Now Japan can defeat China easily. It will be more balanced if a barrack is added to China.

5.Italy troops is always advanced than West Allies? Actually Italy troops is always drop behind West Allies in tech.

At the end , thanks your guys bring us this scenario. I love it.



stone10 -> RE: waw update (1/30/2012 11:31:14 PM)

who is responsible for developing this scenario right now?



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (2/17/2012 4:27:09 PM)

I'm working on fixing based on what ernie & 82nd sent me. SHould have it done today.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (2/17/2012 4:28:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Ok,

I had a look at the file, and the problem was not the one i thought it was initially. Artillery units have no entrenchment capability. But... the initial setup of units had artillery units set to 100 entrenchment as default.

I changed that. So hopefully this will fix the problem... If not, IŽll try something else :)


The more i've looked at it the more it seems to be that in this ATG version tom had arty grouped in with infantry. In the old game he had an artillery grouping. So when we made artillery more vicious to infantry it's also more vicious in defense against artillery.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (2/17/2012 4:40:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zzmzzm

Some advices based on the Waw_atg_v2.1.26.99.
1.I can attack france in 1940-4 and occupy Paris in the same turn. Then with the help of vichy card , German can got all France in 1940-4 with none of West Allies troops can retreat from France. So where is Dunkerk?
If we can bring 2 more inf division into Paris, this problem will be solved. Actually German can attack France very easily so I also suggest the readiness of France troops set to 70% not 50%. Since now the France can not wake up early, this can not cause much more difficuly for German. German will get paris in 3 turns after they attack France.

2.How can a Europe city product much more than a German city? I suggest All Europe city and Non_Europe city can not have more than 100% productivity.
Espacially in this version the France cities only have 50% production.

3.Coast defence is too powerful. It will be better if Coast defence ability is halved. And it will be more interesting if Coast defence can be produced.

4.Japan has been reinforced much . Now Japan can defeat China easily. It will be more balanced if a barrack is added to China.

5.Italy troops is always advanced than West Allies? Actually Italy troops is always drop behind West Allies in tech.

At the end , thanks your guys bring us this scenario. I love it.


Coastal defense units can be produced when you get GUNS 3



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (2/17/2012 4:47:09 PM)

my email is bwheatley@gmail.com if you guys ever need to get up with me. yea had a month long vacation followed by having to move.

Ok 2.1.27

tweaked russia back to Level 2 tanksgave china new barracks next to chungking to help them stem the japanese.
Uploading this version now.



zzmzzm -> RE: waw update (2/17/2012 10:06:06 PM)

I download the new version but not found the barrack near Chongking.



zzmzzm -> RE: waw update (2/17/2012 10:22:19 PM)

If Su have only 2rd tank tech , maybe it is more balanced and historical to give Su some medium tanks and heavy tanks.



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