German Core Force Upgrade Suggestions (Full Version)

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OpFire -> German Core Force Upgrade Suggestions (1/5/2001 9:34:00 PM)

I'm looking for suggestions on how to upgrade my 1939 German core force. My priorities are as follows: GE Wagon & Opel Blitz -> SPW 251/1 HT 50mm Mort Sqd & 75mm IeIG18 -> 75mm FH 37mm PaK36 ATG -> 88mm FlaK18 AT PzKpfw-Ib & PzKpfw-35(t) -> PzKpfw-IIIe Since I'm fighting the Polish for the first few battles I don't believe holding off on the 88's will be problematic. I have some 20mm Flak38 AA which seems very effective against the Polish armor. Any suggestions on another course I might take? In particular, I'm wondering about the merits of the 75mm FH vs 81mm Mort Sqd. Thanks, OpFire



Lars Remmen -> (1/5/2001 10:09:00 PM)

Hello, I'd go for the 38(t) until the 50mm PzIII's appears. Watch out when upgrading mortars. They have a unit multiplier (from one to three usually) which follows the unit - at least when upgrading to other mortars. I don't know what will happen if upgraded to Tigers... But it may not be a problem as I think the 50mm mortar has a '1' multiplier. And remember that you will need the 88mm when fighting the British early in the war! I rarely use HT's (prefer to have my infantry on foot where it spots better). So I would upgrade to some other nice toys or at least wait until I have nothing else to upgrade. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



adantas -> (1/5/2001 10:44:00 PM)

I suppose you're playing the long WWII campaing, right? well, I'm playing this too with the germans and no doubts that the 88 is the best AT weapon, so you must upgrade your PAK to it. about Mortars, I started with 81mm and the are very good against Infantry and soft vehicles. Panzers, I think you will must upgrade to PzKpfw III as main battle tank but another platoon of Pz IV with 75mm short cannon will give you more punch! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I'm now in 08/42 Eastern Front My core force: 1 Panzer's Companie with 2 Platoons of PzIIIh and 1 of Pz IVf2 1 Infantry's Companie with 2 Plattons 1 Engineer's platoon 1 FJ platoon 2 Bty of 88mm with 4 guns each 2 SPW 251/17 AA's sections 3 81mm mortar's section 1 Platoon of Stug f/8 1 Platoon of StuIG 33B -------------- Senta à Pua!!!



Slayer -> (1/6/2001 12:39:00 AM)

I usually go for the Pz-IV. Doesn't have the AP ammo of the Pz-IIIe, but usually it is enough, and has better penetration than the Pz-IIIe. I find that the Pz-38 is also good, with the same pen. as the Pz-IV.



molset -> (1/6/2001 1:13:00 AM)

Greeting gentlemen. Regarding 88 AT. Its true that they are needet against mathildas and the likes in the British inventory, Think "Arras". But, since they are a relatively rare piece of equipment they should be to abundant if the intention is to make a historic core. I pick 88 as auxilary pieces. On the other hand a kamphgrupper isnt a piece time phenomenom Oob wise, so different stiles, different approaches. Regards Molset "Jakki er ekki frakki nema sidur se"



Kluckenbill -> (1/6/2001 1:37:00 AM)

My "long term" German upgrade strategy goes something like this: 37mm PAK to 88 DP then eventually to Hummel (when my tanks have 88s) 81mm mortar to Hummel (Upgrade to SP 81s if points are no problem) Pz 38t to 50mm Pz3 to Stg 3 (w/ l43 gun) to Tiger I use halftracks a lot since the troops can't effectively ride on tanks any more. Upgrade all to infantry to the FG42 armed Fallschirmjaegers . Sometimes I'll eventualy upgrade some of the Tigers to a mix of the really cool stuff (Tiger 2, Jagd Tiger and late model Panthers). Good Luck ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



skukko -> (1/6/2001 1:46:00 AM)

Halftracks are very accurate against AC:s and infantry. Take them when you'll have time and money. Dug-in mg:s don't like halfies... mosh



Charles22 -> (1/6/2001 3:08:00 AM)

The PZIVCs are the best. The only slight problem with them is the somewhat limited AP ammo (though their shell's size often results in hits much more frequently "destroying" the target). Now, looking at the medium tanks, it looks like the PZIIIE is the best because of it's price. Don't be fooled. Look at it's maximum penetration numbers, it's "below" all the other medium tanks. This isn't too terribly important in Poland, but is crucial in France, as the hull of the S35 is generally beyond damaging with the PZIIIE. In my formation, I'm leaving my company's B0 and B1 unit as PZIIIEs, if for no other reason than that their extra mgs are nice, and also because it does have a lot of AP ammo, though useless, again, against the S35. BTW, the 37mm AA is pretty nasty. Also the HE111 is good AT role until the other tank-busters are fixed.



BA Evans -> (1/6/2001 3:18:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: 81mm mortar to Hummel (Upgrade to SP 81s if points are no problem) Good Luck
Hi Kluckenbill, Do you have any problems when upgrading your 81mm to Hummels? Do they both rely on their Artillery rating or does the Hummel use the Armor rating because it is a vehicle? Thanks, BA Evans



Kluckenbill -> (1/6/2001 4:33:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by BA Evans: Hi Kluckenbill, Do you have any problems when upgrading your 81mm to Hummels? Do they both rely on their Artillery rating or does the Hummel use the Armor rating because it is a vehicle? Thanks, BA Evans
I've always assumed that the Hummels were artillery and thus would be best served by crews and leaders with high artillery ratings. I must admit that I don't know this for sure. As an aside, I realize there are lots of oportunities to upgrade between 81 Mortars and Hummels, I just don't think they are worth giving up points and experience for. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



john g -> (1/6/2001 5:01:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by OpFire: I'm looking for suggestions on how to upgrade my 1939 German core force. My priorities are as follows: GE Wagon & Opel Blitz -> SPW 251/1 HT 50mm Mort Sqd & 75mm IeIG18 -> 75mm FH 37mm PaK36 ATG -> 88mm FlaK18 AT PzKpfw-Ib & PzKpfw-35(t) -> PzKpfw-IIIe Since I'm fighting the Polish for the first few battles I don't believe holding off on the 88's will be problematic. I have some 20mm Flak38 AA which seems very effective against the Polish armor. Any suggestions on another course I might take? In particular, I'm wondering about the merits of the 75mm FH vs 81mm Mort Sqd. Thanks, OpFire
One thing that you might not be aware of, the opposing force is bought as a multiple of the value of your force. If you replace low value units with higher value ones, then the opposing force will have more points to spend. If you wanted the 88AA as your at gun you might as well buy it as part of the initial force and not lose experiance for the equipment change. Save the changes for equipment that isn't available at the start of the campaign. The only "historically questionable" upgrades I made when I did a German long campaign were changing the mg in my engineer company to PzIb (mobile armored mgs) and changing the mg and morters in my rifle company to PZIVc and 88AA. An 88AA is quite a bit more effective weapon than a 50mm morter, it even works well against infantry targets (which was noticed during the Spanish Civil War), along with its more common uses against aircraft and armor. Later I took the armor that formerly had been mg's and formed them together as a 6 vehicle platoon, the rifle company engineer squad was then attached to the command squad of the engineer company as a backup to the command squad in the event that I lost that unit I would still have an additional chance for rally. Because of the 11 man crew it takes several shots to take out an 88AA, and it will cause more casualties than any other gun under 150mm for the Germans. The only downside is the 0 movement requiring an Sdkfz 7 to move. thanks, John.



OpFire -> (1/6/2001 8:35:00 AM)

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I see by john g's comments that I'm making the fundamental mistake of beginning with low value units and then upgrading them to units I could purchase from the very start. I was aware that the AI based it's force on the value of my own force but did not completely understand that each of my upgrades to higher value units will effectively be offset by the AI having a higher purchasing power. So it makes a lot of sense to buy what you want right from the start. I'll just purchase the first upgrades I was going to and get them out of the way. Thank you all for the recommendations on the 50mm PzIII's and the PzIVc's. I'll take a look at the penetration numbers and make a decision. Finally, SPA's like Wespes and Hummels do seem to have higher armor values than artillery values when purchased directly so I'm assuming their armor value is their primary capability. So much for my idea of going with as many low value units as possible and then upgrading!



hhsohn -> (1/6/2001 8:57:00 AM)

You know, you might want to hold on to couple of 81mm mortar for their quicker reaction time. I usually use them to suppress armor before engaging with my own armor, or to slow them down until bigger guns can lay on them.



AmmoSgt -> (1/6/2001 9:35:00 AM)

I may get laughed out of the room for this but i have found the a core of JagPz1's and some 222's to supply some mg fire to keep the infantry off the JagPz1 works best for me this is a lot cheaper than buying 38's or PzIIIe's and better at knocking out tanks JagPz1's can kill T-34's and Soumas from the side quite nicely I tend to splurge a bit and by 37mm flak and tow them with Krupps with Mg-34's or even Bltiz's the 37mm flak is very good against armor for the time period and has the right rating to upgrade well to any arty or AT gun (I like 81mm mortars for the upgrade or 105mm how's) and the krupp and opel trucks have the right ratings to upgrade to armor ..consider that 28mm AT gun .. very good at infantry combat ranges and cheap.. upgrades well to arty or 88's you can tow it with the odd little car in the miscilaneious section that is listed with the kublewagons that has a 104 carry rating ..i forget it's name offhand but it also upgrades well to armor or sdkfw-7's when you upgrade the 28mm's to 88's I tend to buy cheap wagons to carry the infantry with the cheap unarmed kublewagon to carry the platoon MG's AT rifles and 50mm mortars ..my at rifles tend to become enginners and my 50mm become 81's the wagons become 251's and the kubels become 251/9's or 10's ..I spend points saved doing this on a couple of Forward observers with the unarmed Kublewagons and german snipers, german snipers are elite so even if ya lose some expierence upgrading to FJ units or the like they still have good experience points just some wild and crazy thoughts .. [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited January 05, 2001).]



BA Evans -> (1/8/2001 11:22:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: I've always assumed that the Hummels were artillery and thus would be best served by crews and leaders with high artillery ratings....
I did a little test over the weekend. Hummels and Wespes DO use 'Armor' as their primary skill. So if you want to get the most out of your SP Artillery, you should buy some cheap armor units (like Opels) and upgrade them to the SP Artillery role. BA Evans



Larry Holt -> (1/9/2001 12:17:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: I may get laughed out of the room for this but i have found the a core of JagPz1's and some 222's to supply some mg fire to keep the infantry off the JagPz1 works best for me ... [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited January 05, 2001).]
No laughing here. Very creative and imaginative. AmmoSgt are you sure you weren't really in the combat arms? ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



AmmoSgt -> (1/9/2001 12:53:00 AM)

Larry what a sweet thing to say..but the combat arms was afraid to let the girls play.. i had to be in a safe confortable place especially when i was disecting a bad lot of ammo or a dud grenade to see why it wouldn't work ... going camping was just to rough ....heheeeheheee [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Bing -> (1/9/2001 4:35:00 AM)

Sarge - Did you ever cut fuses? I knew a couple WW2 vets who were called "Lefty", for their acquisition of fuse cutting skills. Bing P.S. I was in AA units.



AmmoSgt -> (1/9/2001 12:50:00 PM)

Bing i cut a lot of fuse ..but what i cut the most of was det cord ... i was on a team that did the precut pre capped demolition rigs for whole ammo sites and we had to redo them every couple of years since once ya cut det cord it has a shelf life based on moisture absorbtion thru the cut ends even if they are dipped and sealed that also means i got to crimp a lot of caps and i still got all my fingers ...i also got to take all the expired stuff ( around 6000 yes 6000 pounds per site give or take ) down to the range and depending on the range blow it up in 5 to 25 pound increments depending on range saftey limits... thats a lot of charges we mostly used electrical for that .. but i got to cut my fair share of saftey fuse... folks used to be able to tell when i had PMS because i would have the master list of suspended and suspect munitions and be calling around to supported units seeing if anybody had anything on the list so i could blow something up ..... now that i am old and past all that computer games work good enough (hows that for a visual) heheeeheheee cackle



Bing -> (1/9/2001 1:33:00 PM)

Hey, there's nothin' like a honest-to-gosh KA-BOOM!!!! to liven up a dull sedentary life, eh what? LOVE 8" how fire. LOVE T-34 Calliope and the Russkie rockets. My cats are so used to the racket they sleep right through it. Did I ever tell you about the blasting foreman who used to drink his lunch? On the job? True story. So help me. Was bombarding a town not quite a mile away on a highway job in Kentucky. Very popular fella, he was. Heheheheheh. Bing aka K-B.



Larry Holt -> (1/9/2001 8:12:00 PM)

AmmoSgt, My apologies for not considering that reason for not being in the combat arms. Actually I started out in ordnance, commanding the 149th EOD at Aberdeen PG. It was fun finding old stuff to blow up. When that failed, I had my own tank, an M48 abandoned after some trials, to apply explosives to. It was a LOT smaller afer I left. Gives me some experience when talking about improvised anti-tank defense too. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



AmmoSgt -> (1/10/2001 4:18:00 AM)

Larry alright ahh a Delta too cool i was a Golf primarily so ya gotta know i sorta have to talk about range time also held Bravo Romeo and X-Ray Qualifiers and i covered for you guys in Germany during elections when ya'll went home to flush tolilets for senators I also was a demo instructor for the Golf School at Redstone.. yeah on a slow day with a good imagination and all the fun syuff in the world you can really experiment with what makes things come apart... keep that capmachine with ya at all times .... Gurock 59th Bde Power to Spare [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited January 09, 2001).]



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