Fort decay (Full Version)

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Oleg Mastruko -> Fort decay (11/1/2011 10:02:45 PM)

Fort decay is pretty brutal in 1.05. Questions:

- Level 2 or 3 fort decays right back to zero, or gradually down to level 2, then 1 then 0?

- In order to stop fort decay, the location has to be occupied. Can it be occupied by any unit, including HQa and airbases or it has to be combat unit?



Balou -> RE: Fort decay (11/1/2011 10:19:04 PM)

Q-Ball in his AAR ("Death Ride to Russia, post # 121) is using empty airbases for digging or preventing fort decay.



Ketza -> RE: Fort decay (11/1/2011 10:23:49 PM)

It is indeed brutal but the work arounds are using empty Airbases, HQs and fort units with TOE set very low.

It makes the front look too gamey for my tastes but in 1943 onward as Axis if you dont have fort fallback positions your going to get hammered so there isnt much choice.



Balou -> RE: Fort decay (11/1/2011 10:44:19 PM)

Remains hard to fgure out HQ clerks armed with shovels. Same goes for LW units, they probably had their own tactics about how to turtle.

[image]local://upfiles/32354/5178BF0A21EE4439A96E706DDDDE48EA.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Fort decay (11/1/2011 11:27:24 PM)

I will confirm that HQs and Airbases work great. I prefer Fort Zones if you have the APs, because that's fewer guys outside. But I didn't have enough APs.

The Soviets always have spare Rifle units around to use, and probably don't need to use Fort Zones



Peltonx -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 2:20:56 AM)

Turtleing is that when Russians run east after evacing armament pts?

or is that just plain gaming the system?

Post a picture of an armament pt in a Reds arms on a rail car, so we get the picture.

Work arounds=exploits.

rail system = exploit.

Pelton



gradenko2k -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 3:03:08 AM)

Until and unless the devs specifically disallow you from performing a certain action within the game and/or both players agree to restrain themselves from doing a certain action (what we call a "house rule"), a player is certainly within his rights to take whatever action he deems necessary to win the game.

You can't oblige someone to evac Heavy Industry if he knows he doesn't need to. You can't oblige someone to stand-and-fight just because that was the historical strategy pursued. Trying to make players feel worse about themselves by calling these things "exploits" is hardly going to net any sympathy for the problems you're trying to point out.



76mm -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 4:33:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Trying to make players feel worse about themselves by calling these things "exploits" is hardly going to net any sympathy for the problems you're trying to point out.


People just need to understand that Pelton simply has his own definition of "exploit",which is something like "anything another player does that negatively impacts my strategy and which I consider, in my sole discretion, at least slightly gamey." And you can't forget the "Axis exploit exclusion rules", such as the Germans getting to Stalino by Turn 7, which is totally and completely legit.

Once you understand the language he is speaking it is easier (although not always completely possible) to tune out his rants.



Apollo11 -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 8:59:43 AM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Fort decay is pretty brutal in 1.05. Questions:

- Level 2 or 3 fort decays right back to zero, or gradually down to level 2, then 1 then 0?

- In order to stop fort decay, the location has to be occupied. Can it be occupied by any unit, including HQa and airbases or it has to be combat unit?


Decay is always gradual...


Leo "Apollo11"



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 1:12:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I will confirm that HQs and Airbases work great. I prefer Fort Zones if you have the APs, because that's fewer guys outside. But I didn't have enough APs.



I am glad that HQ units prevent forts from decaying, but that's actually against the manual. After posting my original question I found that the manual says that only combat units prevent fort decay (that was obviously in v1.0, when forts decayed slower).

So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 1:17:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?


As far as I recall, any on-map unit precludes decay (the manual hasn't stated otherwise as far as I remember). With 1.05.18 fort decay became apparent, before that was very, very mild.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't understand your question Oleg.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 2:38:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?


As far as I recall, any on-map unit precludes decay (the manual hasn't stated otherwise as far as I remember).


Page 204 of the game manual, section 15.3.2.1: "Once a fort level is constructed it will start to decay if the hex is not occupied by a COMBAT unit."

That's what the manual says, now if airbase and HQ units prevent decay, obviously there was a rule change (a welcome change I might say, because now the decay is brutal and any anti-decay help is good)



Apollo11 -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 3:03:13 PM)

Hi all,

In manual Addendum...

quote:


v1.05.18 – September 6, 2011

New Features and Rule Changes

20) Changes to Fortification Rules
a. Requirement to build up to Fort Level 5 - Only will be built in port hexes that have a fort unit. Once built, the fort unit is not needed to keep the level 4 fort. Not possible in a swamp hex.
b. Requirement to build up to Fort Level 4 - Must have a fort unit in the hex. Once built, the fort unit is not needed to keep the level 4 fort. Not possible in swamp hex.
c. Requirement to build up to Fort Level 3 - Must be adjacent to an enemy hex, be an urban or city hex, or be in or adjacent to a fort unit. Once the level 3 is reached, the condition does not have to continue to be met to keep the level 3 fort.
d. Fort levels that have reached their maximum fort level for the hex may continue to build up to 10% towards the next fort level.
e. Building forts in mud now uses a .25 modifier (instead of .33).
f. Level 4 and 5 forts do not decay.
g. There is no fort decay on turn 1 of any scenario.
h. Doubled the rate of fort decay.
i. Increased decay rate of low level forts, based on the weather.
Extra decay percentage:
Fort Weather
Level clear snow mud/blizzard
0 20 40 80
1 12 14 48
2 4 8 16
g. Added supply cost for fort construction as follows: fort 0->1 1 tons per fort point (no cost for isolated units, construction rate is halved) fort 1->2 2 tons per fort point (no cost for isolated units, construction rate is halved) fort 2->3 20 tons per fort points fort 3->4 200 tons per fort points fort 4->5 2000 tons


As for non-combat units causing non-decay of forts I have no idea - perhaps it is a bug... I will ask Pavel...



Leo "Apollo11"



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 3:22:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?


As far as I recall, any on-map unit precludes decay (the manual hasn't stated otherwise as far as I remember).


Page 204 of the game manual, section 15.3.2.1: "Once a fort level is constructed it will start to decay if the hex is not occupied by a COMBAT unit."

That's what the manual says, now if airbase and HQ units prevent decay, obviously there was a rule change (a welcome change I might say, because now the decay is brutal and any anti-decay help is good)


My memory is obviously faulty [:(]



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 3:39:41 PM)

I also have as problem with this rule:

"Requirement to build up to Fort Level 4 - Must have a fort unit in the hex. Once built, the fort unit is not needed to keep the level 4 fort." and this: "Requirement to build up to Fort Level 3 - Must be adjacent to an enemy hex, be an urban or city hex, or be in or adjacent to a fort unit."

I built fort units specifically to enable me reaching level 3 and possibly 4 in hexes that are NOT adjacent to enemy, as per rule(s) above. The rule above says that the only way to get to level 3 *IF* a hex is not adjacent to enemy or urban, is to have a fort unit nearby, right?

The only problem is fort building still does not proceed above level 2 even with forts in adjacent hexes, nor does it proceed above level 3 with fort IN the said hex. So either I don't understand the new rule or something is wrong?



gradenko2k -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 4:10:10 PM)

I think what the rule is trying to say is that you have a hex with a fort unit, that specific hex can reach as high as level 4, and all hexes adjacent to it can reach as high as level 3. If you place a fort unit on every other hex, then there'll be a pattern of 4-3-4-3-4-3 forts.

What do you mean by fort building not proceeding? I imagine a fort unit could build up to level 4 all by itself, but it'd take a while given the construction rating of a fort unit by itself.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 4:17:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I think what the rule is trying to say is that you have a hex with a fort unit, that specific hex can reach as high as level 4, and all hexes adjacent to it can reach as high as level 3. If you place a fort unit on every other hex, then there'll be a pattern of 4-3-4-3-4-3 forts.


That is correct, that is how I understand the rule should work as well. However, see below...

quote:

What do you mean by fort building not proceeding? I imagine a fort unit could build up to level 4 all by itself, but it'd take a while given the construction rating of a fort unit by itself.


Even though I have forts in every other hex, the building of forts in hexes WITH forts stays at 3 + 0% (should work slowly towards 4) and in hexes adjacent to forts stays at 2 + 0% (should go slowly towards 3). In toher words it's like fort units have no effect.



Joel Billings -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 5:26:14 PM)

There was a bug with the forts not working several versions ago, IIRC, but in a recent game I'm playing I'm seeing the forts work with adjacent hexes getting to 3 (10%). If with the latest version you are not seeing the fort hexes build to 4 or adjacent build to 3, please post a save if you have one. Thanks.

Yes, combat units should be in the hex to prevent decay, so this is a bug we will look into.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 6:13:38 PM)

Joel some of my forts have *Refit status, the asterisk (*) probably indicating they are not combat ready until their TOE fills up. Could the lack of combat readiness (indicated by *) mean they are not radiating the fort building benefits to the units in their hex and adjacent hexes?



Joel Billings -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 6:40:07 PM)

Anything is possible, but I think that's unlikely as it was not in the specs and I assume Pavel would have had to code it that way to make the unready status impact fort building.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 6:47:09 PM)

Hmm, suggest to Pavel to take a look in this thread. If it's intended that fort units don't provide benefits while their TOE is not fully ready, then fine. If it's not intended, then I can provide a savefile for Pavel.



Helpless -> RE: Fort decay (11/2/2011 10:37:21 PM)

Unready fort units should trigger higher fort level allowance.

Making all the requirements is just one side of the coin, you also need to have high construction value to ba able to build high level forts. Obviously low TOE units won't give much.



pompack -> RE: Fort decay (11/3/2011 12:09:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I think what the rule is trying to say is that you have a hex with a fort unit, that specific hex can reach as high as level 4, and all hexes adjacent to it can reach as high as level 3. If you place a fort unit on every other hex, then there'll be a pattern of 4-3-4-3-4-3 forts.


That is correct, that is how I understand the rule should work as well. However, see below...

quote:

What do you mean by fort building not proceeding? I imagine a fort unit could build up to level 4 all by itself, but it'd take a while given the construction rating of a fort unit by itself.


Even though I have forts in every other hex, the building of forts in hexes WITH forts stays at 3 + 0% (should work slowly towards 4) and in hexes adjacent to forts stays at 2 + 0% (should go slowly towards 3). In toher words it's like fort units have no effect.



Playing 1.05.37 with the game started one rev back, I have built a maze of forts between Leningrad and Luga with all level 3 except one level 4. I placed the fort units two hexes apart in two dimensions and it worked exactly as stated. Note that I did have a combat unit stacked with each fort so that may have made a difference. Also note that I had over 20 turns to do it because Leningrad was not attacked. Also remember that forts build much more quickly next to Leningrad due to civilian labor; perhaps it just takes a very long time to build forts up to that level.



gingerbread -> RE: Fort decay (11/3/2011 12:15:44 AM)

This is in a testbed Human vs Human, normal and just ending turns (except for vacating and capturing Lvov and Vyborg so that the Slovaks and Finns stay in the game).

In 05.37 it is as if F.R.'s does not qualify as combat unit to trigger civilian assistance. There is one at start in Leningrad (L4 + 10%), but even so the fort level does not increase. It does take 50 contruction points to increase each 2%, but there are Finnish units within 12 hexes, so some turn should see some civilian assistance (120 c-points). Oranienbaum (L4+10%) also starts with a F.R. and with the 4th Nav Inf, it does manage to build 2% now and then, i.e the F.R. allows fort level to increase beyond L4+10%. Presence of IB triggers civilian assistance, in itself it does not have enough c-points to get +2%.



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