No Invasion of the US Please (Full Version)

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GaryChildress -> No Invasion of the US Please (11/6/2011 3:36:22 AM)

When we get to the 1944 & 45 DLCs, I hope we don't have Germany invading Wichita, Kansas or anything like it. A cross Atlantic invasion of the US by Germany is so unrealistic, it would really ruin it for me. I'd much rather see a campaign based more closely on historic events. Even if it means losing the war it would be more interesting to me in the end.

One thing that could be done is in the last DLCs maybe 1944 onward, is to set up the scenarios so that you are losing purchase points in the aggregate. So in other words you start out 1939 building up your core army and then 1944-1945 slowly getting your aremy whittled down. Maybe set it up so that toward the end of the DLCs you are spending most of your purchase points just keeping your core army alive and upgraded with the latest equipment. Perhaps make units disbandable for extra PPs. So for instance in order to upgrade a tiger to a king tiger I might need to disband a unit to get the extra PPs. The final battle could be in the streets of Berlin with whatever is left of your army. You save Fritz's meat market from falling into Russian hands and you get a victory screen saying that Fritz is so grateful that he treats you to a free pot roast. [:D]

That would be far more interesting to me than Germany invading the US or launching an invasion space fleet to Alpha Centauri (which are probably about equally realistic).



Razz1 -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/6/2011 3:46:39 AM)

Agreed.



HansHafen -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/6/2011 7:48:42 AM)

Well, history could have been different, that's one of the reasons we study it and replay it. So I would like to see it be possible because I think it would be fun to play.

Also, if Germany did defeat UK and Russia, who is to say they don't take those resources and begin to build subs and ships out the wazoo? And offer much support to the Japanese?

Looks like it is 2 votes against, one vote for. [:)]



KerenskyLI -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/6/2011 8:07:12 AM)

The plan for the initial DLCs is a purely historical path with only a few individual bonus and optional scenarios being fictional.

Key word on initial.  ;) 

If there's enough demand, I'm certain we'll have Allied Campaigns and Fictional Campaigns along the same lines.



GaryChildress -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/6/2011 8:44:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

Well, history could have been different, that's one of the reasons we study it and replay it. So I would like to see it be possible because I think it would be fun to play.

Also, if Germany did defeat UK and Russia, who is to say they don't take those resources and begin to build subs and ships out the wazoo? And offer much support to the Japanese?

Looks like it is 2 votes against, one vote for. [:)]


Germany and Japan together just didn't have the manpower nor resources to win against the USSR, The Commonwealth AND the US. It's a complete non-starter. Had Germany taken Moscow it probably wouldn't have ended the war in Russia. The US dropped the atomic bombs because invading the relatively small island of Japan would have cost millions of lives. Just think how many lives it would have cost Germany to invade the whole continent of N. America? If Germany crossed the Atlantic to invade the US where would they even begin? It would have been impossible to supply such an invasion. Secondly, why would Germany want to put itself through such a fiasco? What possible gain would there be? Even Hitler wasn't quite that crazy. It's complete pie in the sky. Panzers in Atlanta? Hitler would have been better advised to invade the moon. [:D]



Hanal -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/6/2011 8:56:07 AM)

We might as go travel down the Turtledove road and have a bunch of Alien Lizards attack the Axis and Aliies!



gerg71 -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/6/2011 10:11:49 AM)

I agree that BOTH types of campaigns would be fun to play.....If we wanted a game that was totally realistic I doubt so many wouldn't care that the way airpower works (compared to other units) makes no sense (planes stay in the air for days at a time without refueling).......Anyway, I get it that even with early major victorys it would have been very dificult for Germany to invade the USA. But it's fun to have the chance to write new history. Although defending Germany would also be a fun test.




Tac2i -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/7/2011 2:27:44 PM)

+1 -- The key to gaming fun for me is this very thing. I don't want to just replay historical events with game rules/mechanics that force me down a certain path. I want a chance to make history. I've purchased both DLCs and I'm enjoying them so far. Would be nice if Panzer Corps had a random game generator like Advanced Tactics Gold (my all time favorite wargame).

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerg71
it's fun to have the chance to write new history.




Dragoon. -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/7/2011 4:33:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KerenskyLI

The plan for the initial DLCs is a purely historical path with only a few individual bonus and optional scenarios being fictional.

Key word on initial. ;)

If there's enough demand, I'm certain we'll have Allied Campaigns and Fictional Campaigns along the same lines.




Well, if you consider doing a allied campaign I would like to see a Russian campaign first.

From a gaming point of view a Russian campaign would be optimal. Because like the Germans their army experienced an significant evolution during the war, offering a great variety in equipment especially tanks, TD, SPG's and planes(with lend lease). Constantly upgrading to better equipment is for me part of the fun.
Also the campaign could be rich in variety and full of exciting twists.
Starting easy with invading Poland, followed by the tough Winter War against Finland, your fight for survival against the Germans, a last stand, counter offensive, just to be rooted again an other last stand and the final push back. And it all ends with a battle against Japan. A symphony of violence, who wouldn't enjoy that? ;)

Unfortunately a well made Russian campaign would be anything than newbie friendly and very hard in difficulty.
You may have the invasion of Poland as an easy entry in the campaign but already the Winter War has to be very hard nut to crack.



AbeSimpson -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/7/2011 8:30:48 PM)

Full scale invasion of US!!![sm=tank2-39.gif]



GaryChildress -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/8/2011 2:28:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Full scale invasion of US!!![sm=tank2-39.gif]



I thought this was Panzer Corps not Fantasy Corps. [:D]



Razz1 -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/8/2011 3:29:39 AM)

What do you expect from Homer?



jomni -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/8/2011 3:53:21 AM)

Just don't buy the DLC if it ever comes out.  The good thing about DLC is choice.  I still a haven't bought a single one. :)



AbeSimpson -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/8/2011 8:23:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Full scale invasion of US!!![sm=tank2-39.gif]



I thought this was Panzer Corps not Fantasy Corps. [:D]


Damn, and I thought this was a game were you have the choice to alter history. If you canīt stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen. :)



Dragoon. -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/8/2011 9:26:14 AM)

I thought it was a turn-based strategy game. [X(]



AbeSimpson -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/8/2011 10:28:42 AM)

[:D]



GaryChildress -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/9/2011 7:57:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Full scale invasion of US!!![sm=tank2-39.gif]



I thought this was Panzer Corps not Fantasy Corps. [:D]


Damn, and I thought this was a game were you have the choice to alter history. If you canīt stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen. :)


Maybe we should have Germany invading Australia then. We can alter history and have Germany take over the entire world. Then the space lizards descend and all havoc breaks loose. There's "altered history" for you. [:D]



James Ward -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/9/2011 8:16:37 PM)

There are two Sea Lion scenarios included. Both are pretty much 'fantasy'. They don't seem to ruin the game.



vonRocko -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/9/2011 8:17:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Full scale invasion of US!!![sm=tank2-39.gif]



I thought this was Panzer Corps not Fantasy Corps. [:D]


Damn, and I thought this was a game were you have the choice to alter history. If you canīt stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen. :)


Maybe we should have Germany invading Australia then. We can alter history and have Germany take over the entire world. Then the space lizards descend and all havoc breaks loose. There's "altered history" for you. [:D]

Now you're being ridiculous! Everyone knows the space lizards where already there.



AbeSimpson -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/9/2011 9:15:26 PM)

Hey, US Gov told us, there are no space lizards and never have been!! Lets keep things straight here! [:D]



GaryChildress -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 2:39:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

There are two Sea Lion scenarios included. Both are pretty much 'fantasy'. They don't seem to ruin the game.


I don't know to what degree a cross channel invasion of Britain would have been plausible or not but Germany sending transports across the Atlantic ranks up there with Buck Rogers and Red Dawn. Personally I'm not really in favor of a Sea Lion scenario either but I can at least find some small degree of plausibility in it. An invasion of the US is really pushing it though. Granted PC isn't much of a simulation of combat reality but there's a point where fantasy can get pushed too far and for me invading the US tips the scale. I mean, if that's what you guys want then knock yourselves out. I'll probably pass on the last couple installments if that's the case. [image]http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/idunno.gif[/image]



HansHafen -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 5:55:19 AM)

ALL computer games are fantasy. There is no blood, pain, death, dirt, broken bones, severed limbs, decapitated rotting bodies, brain gore and bodily fluid sprayed all over you, no vomit inducing stench of death. No real morale, strategy, tactics, supply etc issues that are remotely the same as reality. No fog of war remotely approximating real life. No bonehead NCO yelling at you to do something that absolutely doesn't need to be done. So, go ahead with the scenario which is the same as the rest, fantasy.

And why couldn't Beria assasinate Stalin and give Germany european russia and bide his time behind the urals? Didn't happen, but could have. What if the Germans got a little luckier in 41 and did take Moscow? Stalin sues for peace and bides his time behind the Urals?

Thus Germany has a huge increase in resources and a one active front war. Maybe also Hitler didn't mistreat the Balts and the Ukrainians? Thus more soldiers. What if Hitler died and someone more sensible took over?

I suggest that they label this scenario as "fantasy" so no one will be confused and think it actually happened.



El Condoro -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 10:43:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Full scale invasion of US!!![sm=tank2-39.gif]



I thought this was Panzer Corps not Fantasy Corps. [:D]


Damn, and I thought this was a game were you have the choice to alter history. If you canīt stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen. :)


Maybe we should have Germany invading Australia then. We can alter history and have Germany take over the entire world. Then the space lizards descend and all havoc breaks loose. There's "altered history" for you. [:D]

Already done! "Invasion Australia"



GaryChildress -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 11:21:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen
ALL computer games are fantasy.


This is something I've stated before myself in relation to other games. Even War in the Pacific is Fantasy, though it purports itself to be a "simulation". It pretty much comes down to how much fantasy one is interested in playing. On the one side of the spectrum is a wargame which follows the historic course of the war. To the other extreme is invasion of the space lizards. Somewhere in between there is invasion of the US. Granted I might still play invasion of the space lizards if that was what Slitherine offered but I would be much happier personally with a game that followed the historic course of the war.

quote:

And why couldn't Beria assasinate Stalin and give Germany european russia and bide his time behind the urals? Didn't happen, but could have. What if the Germans got a little luckier in 41 and did take Moscow? Stalin sues for peace and bides his time behind the Urals?

Thus Germany has a huge increase in resources and a one active front war. Maybe also Hitler didn't mistreat the Balts and the Ukrainians? Thus more soldiers. What if Hitler died and someone more sensible took over?

I suggest that they label this scenario as "fantasy" so no one will be confused and think it actually happened.


There are a LOT of what ifs in the above. You basically come to a point where you are no longer playing a "World War II" game if you completely rewrite history. What if Slitherine decided to follow your alternate history above? Would you be as happy with PC if there were no Russian front? Since as you say "all computer games are fantasy" then I assume it makes no difference to you?

Anyway, here's an idea for a compromise. Since Matrix and Slitherine are selling these DLCs, why not make more than one for the last couple years of the war. For 1944 and 1945 create a standard "Panzer General" version where America is invaded AND a version where Germany fights out the historic war to the bitter end. I assume since these DLCs are being sold that Matrix and Slitherine would therefore profit more from creating two different installments instead of just one.



AbeSimpson -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 11:36:24 AM)

No two versions needed. Just lose some key battles or win them minor. This should be enough to go down the "historical" road.





Tac2i -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 12:58:33 PM)

If playing 'historical" means Germany wins because they last until June 1945 vice May 1945 (or the Soviets win because they defeat Germany in March 1945 vice May 1945),  no thank you. What fun is that? For me, not much. I really like playing wargames but the whole point is that a game puts you, the player, in control so that you might effect a different outcome. I suppose you could say I'm a "fantasy" wargamer within the WWII technology era.

I'm really enjoying Panzer Corps and have purchased both DLCs. Its a quick 'beer and pretzel' game for me yet has some depth to it. The best example of what I like in a wargame, however, is a random generated game of Advanced Tactics Gold. I've been playing this game, first AT and now ATG, since 2007.



James Ward -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 2:30:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

There are two Sea Lion scenarios included. Both are pretty much 'fantasy'. They don't seem to ruin the game.


I don't know to what degree a cross channel invasion of Britain would have been plausible or not but Germany sending transports across the Atlantic ranks up there with Buck Rogers and Red Dawn. Personally I'm not really in favor of a Sea Lion scenario either but I can at least find some small degree of plausibility in it. An invasion of the US is really pushing it though. Granted PC isn't much of a simulation of combat reality but there's a point where fantasy can get pushed too far and for me invading the US tips the scale. I mean, if that's what you guys want then knock yourselves out. I'll probably pass on the last couple installments if that's the case. [image]http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/idunno.gif[/image]


I agree that crossing the Atlantic is different than crossing the Channel but both are 'what if's'. If you're going to have what if's then why not have a bunch?



blastpop -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 2:31:55 PM)

Invading the US was not plausible. An extreme number of things would have had to go right for the Germans as well as a lot of luck. There was a chance of Sealion as the Germans were preparing for the eventuality in an operational way.

I'm not really interested in Alt history. No Texas Tea, Tomorrow the World or Nato Nukes and Nazis...

That said why not:

Why not accommodate both camps. Some sort of setup option to allow or not the Germans to proceed past England as an example in the West...



AbeSimpson -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 2:40:22 PM)

PG had those choices, you could choose between Balkans and North Africa or opt for Gibraltar...
but once youīve chosen a certain path you had to conquer the States in 45 (Major in Moscow 42, Major in UK 43 and then US 45).



GaryChildress -> RE: No Invasion of the US Please (11/10/2011 2:44:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Webizen

If playing 'historical" means Germany wins because they last until June 1945 vice May 1945 (or the Soviets win because they defeat Germany in March 1945 vice May 1945),  no thank you. What fun is that? For me, not much. I really like playing wargames but the whole point is that a game puts you, the player, in control so that you might effect a different outcome. I suppose you could say I'm a "fantasy" wargamer within the WWII technology era.



The fun is in playing the game, not in some percieved "reward" screen at the end which says, "you've conquered the world". Code Name Panzers is one of my favorite games of all time. The German campaign ends in Stalingrad with the German player winning a tactical victory for the day but it still doesn't have any effect on the overall outcome of the war, you know the Germans are still going to lose Stalingrad. General Paulus simply hands you a box of cigars in the victory cut scene. Not much of a reward but I really don't care what the victory screen says once I've finished all the scenarios. I still had the most fun I've ever had in a game playing it.

In gaming there is only 1 tangible reward that counts and that is the opportunity to play another level after winning the previous one. Whether or not your final victory screen says, "you conqured the world" or "you lost the war but you played a good game" is irrelevant. Just about every game and it's sequel has a "you conquered the world" victory at the end. Wouldn't something different be nice for a change?

Anyway looks like the votes are in favor of Fantasy Corps. Enjoy your fantasy. Say hello to Tattoo for me. [:D]



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