Burma Scenarios (Full Version)

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herwin -> Burma Scenarios (11/7/2011 9:40:31 AM)

I have little experience developing scenarios for WitP-AE, but I'd like to see some ground combat scenarios. I've been looking at the OCS Burma game, exploring how to replicate those scenarios in WitP-AE. I don't think it can be done. For example, the Yunnan scenario would involve 15 Chinese divisions against 10 Japanese battalions for about six weeks in a six hex area (3 hexes NS, 2 hexes EW) along the Salween, with the goal of the Chinese to wipe out the Japanese and the goal of the Japanese to hold three towns along the river--probably equivalent to keeping troops in the three western hexes.. The Chinese divisions would start with a combat power about half that of an allied division and a minimal skill level. The Japanese battalions would start with a combat power about 1/10th of that of allied division and a maximal skill level.

Another, shorter, scenario would be the fighting retreat of the 17th Indian division. The forces involved would be 11 Japanese battalions, 3 Indian brigades, 5 Indian battalions, and 2 Indian tank battalions in two hexes (NS). Most of the forces start out in the southern hex, where the Japanese have established a series of road blocks.. The goal of the Indian forces is to withdraw to the northern hex, and the goal of the Japanese force is to set up road blocks preventing that. The key tactic of both sides is infiltration. The scenario would be 17-18 days. The Indian Army has air support by 300 fighters, 50 B-25 bombers, 50 Vengence dive bombers, and 100 C-47s. Historically, the Indian division escaped, but lost about three battalions of troops.



JeffroK -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/7/2011 9:52:22 AM)

Wrong game engine for this sized scenario, try TOAWIII.

Which fighting retreat?,If 1942, I bet Slim's predecessor (Hutton?) would have killed for that air support. If its the fighting on the Tiddim Rd I think you need to include the whole front not take one route in isolation.



herwin -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/7/2011 10:59:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Wrong game engine for this sized scenario, try TOAWIII.

Which fighting retreat?,If 1942, I bet Slim's predecessor (Hutton?) would have killed for that air support. If its the fighting on the Tiddim Rd I think you need to include the whole front not take one route in isolation.



1. Yes, but the WitP-AE combat model should be able to replicate the casualties and retreats at the historical tempo. The OCS combat model is good at producing historically reasonable outcomes--at least good enough to allow three month campaigns to be replayed.

2. This is the fighting retreat of the 17th Indian Division along the Tiddim Road. It can be treated in isolation and shows the two sides doing what they did best. (The Japanese--infiltration along the paths, and the Indians--stand up fighting to clear the road blocks.)

3. Slim's predecessor in the 1942 retreat was Slim.



Andy Mac -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/7/2011 1:50:17 PM)

Wrong scale I did a Burma 42 scen but thats the only small map burma scen I amaware of



herwin -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/7/2011 2:44:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Wrong scale I did a Burma 42 scen but thats the only small map burma scen I amaware of


I agree on the scale. On the other hand, I was trying to intrigue some of the scenario designers by linking to the Burma rules that they can download. The campaign is 5 months and includes the Chindits, the Chinese, and the Commonwealth with a wide variety of operations. The map would extend from Dimapur to Myitkyina and from Gamgaw to east of Mandalay, with a six hex tab along the Salween. In WitP-AE terms, 8 hexes NE-SW by 9 hexes perpendicular to that. I think it would be a true test of the game engine.



JeffroK -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/7/2011 11:51:34 PM)

Maybe, Slim only arrived in Burma in March 1942 to take command of BurCorps on its formation, prior to this the troops in Burma were led by Lt Gen T.J Hutton who has dismissed on 28/2/42 by Wavell.



herwin -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/8/2011 10:12:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Maybe, Slim only arrived in Burma in March 1942 to take command of BurCorps on its formation, prior to this the troops in Burma were led by Lt Gen T.J Hutton who has dismissed on 28/2/42 by Wavell.


Dismissed shortly after the Sittang Bridge fiasco. Slim commanded the BurCorps in the retreat from Rangoon to India.



JWE -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/8/2011 7:05:00 PM)

I suppose this is the relevant forum in which to pose your question. But both your premise and your expression are offensive.

The true test of the game is the environment in which it exists. And it does that very well.

So "Smoke You" and your continuous, pathetic, attempts to cast this game in your own, wierd, terms, and your irresponsible, irrelevant, repetitious, and technically incompetent, complaints. I, for one, am utterly sick of them. You have neither the knowledge, nor experience, to make reasonably informed posts on these matters. The posts you do make have become a bit of a laughingstock among them that have some facilty in this area.

So get off the high horse. It should be utterly obvious to any computer game literate 8 year old, that AE cannot do what you demand. Deal with it.

Since you have told us all just how superior you are and how much more you know about computer modeling and the military, I suggest you do what I did; make your own scenario and let the players decide.

This is the appropriate sub-forum in which to do that. So long as you have the wit to handle it.



herwin -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/8/2011 8:49:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I suppose this is the relevant forum in which to pose your question. But both your premise and your expression are offensive.

The true test of the game is the environment in which it exists. And it does that very well.

So "Smoke You" and your continuous, pathetic, attempts to cast this game in your own, wierd, terms, and your irresponsible, irrelevant, repetitious, and technically incompetent, complaints. I, for one, am utterly sick of them. You have neither the knowledge, nor experience, to make reasonably informed posts on these matters. The posts you do make have become a bit of a laughingstock among them that have some facilty in this area.

So get off the high horse. It should be utterly obvious to any computer game literate 8 year old, that AE cannot do what you demand. Deal with it.

Since you have told us all just how superior you are and how much more you know about computer modeling and the military, I suggest you do what I did; make your own scenario and let the players decide.

This is the appropriate sub-forum in which to do that. So long as you have the wit to handle it.


I'm missing the point you're making.

What about treating a battlefield as a graph, with positions (vertices) and routes (edges)? Use the existing abstraction of the hex as seven sub-regions, each containing a position. The distance between a pair of positions is about the distance that a division can screen, so we might regard each vertex as a divisional position. A positional defence defends a position; a mobile defence defends an edge, and infiltration moves down an edge. The state of a hex is defined by who holds the seven positions and the distance advanced along each edge, which can probably be treated as an integer value. Advancing between two hex centres involves travelling along three edges, each with two intermediate positions between vertices. So an edge is 15 miles--a day's march in Western European terrain. Moving occupied position to position involves attacking with about a 30% chance of advancing. Mobile tactics involve being able to move two or three times as fast as infantry. Japanese infiltration tactics involves finding and advancing along lightly held edges, or even skipping between parallel edges. (Watch the paths!)

I think it can be calibrated yet it is hardly as complicated as modelling the hex as terrain. It's a bit similar to how I've seen an intel officer do a terrain analysis--he looked for routes and positions.



Nikademus -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/8/2011 9:06:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I suppose this is the relevant forum in which to pose your question. But both your premise and your expression are offensive.

The true test of the game is the environment in which it exists. And it does that very well.

So "Smoke You" and your continuous, pathetic, attempts to cast this game in your own, wierd, terms, and your irresponsible, irrelevant, repetitious, and technically incompetent, complaints. I, for one, am utterly sick of them. You have neither the knowledge, nor experience, to make reasonably informed posts on these matters. The posts you do make have become a bit of a laughingstock among them that have some facilty in this area.

So get off the high horse. It should be utterly obvious to any computer game literate 8 year old, that AE cannot do what you demand. Deal with it.

Since you have told us all just how superior you are and how much more you know about computer modeling and the military, I suggest you do what I did; make your own scenario and let the players decide.

This is the appropriate sub-forum in which to do that. So long as you have the wit to handle it.


Just Green Button the pompass a$$ and be done with him John.



JWE -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/8/2011 9:50:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Just Green Button the pompass a$$ and be done with him John.

Yes. I should. But this is the Mod forum, so a certain degree of acceptance is, perhaps, obligatory. Where a pompous a$$ poster exposes themselves as such, the regulars here are more than knowledgeable enough to dump his crap into the budah's bootawn of the root chakra (the one just a bit lower than, and slightly dorsal to, the Sacral Chakra, i.e., the one that's brown).

Otherwise, the poster exposes themselves to the slings and arrows of outrageous prior denizens. Think poor Harry is out of his league, but if he insists on playing, who am I to gainsay the gaming field?



Nikademus -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/8/2011 10:07:36 PM)

quote:


Think poor Harry is out of his league, but if he insists on playing, who am I to gainsay the gaming field?



of that you can be assured. Erwin's a talker unwilling or able to put his money where his large mouth is and thus must compensate with bluster and obnoxious signatures ragging on the original game designer for not giving him the kind of game he feels entitled too and can't produce himself. Oh well.....even if i only see half the conversation I must admit your retorts to his poo are amusing to read. [:D]



JeffroK -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/9/2011 3:19:00 AM)

Oh well, 2 more candidates for the Green button



Jorm -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/11/2011 11:15:32 PM)

hehe




JeffroK -> RE: Burma Scenarios (11/12/2011 1:06:40 AM)

I wasnt talking about Harry!



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