Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (Full Version)

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McIvan -> Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/10/2011 9:50:39 AM)

I'm in a middle of a very frustrating game of Defending the Dyle, playing as the Germans.

If people take a look, they'll see there's a deep blue river (the Dyle), big victory point hexes on the Allied rear side, and plenty of Allied engineers. If the Allied player blows the bridges, the German player might as well stop there. They can't get at enough victory points to score even a minor win. The Allies instantly win. Obviously, if you want to have a decent game, you have to forbear and leave the bridges alone.

My opponent blew three of the eight bridges in a single turn, so I spent a fair bit of time emailing him about the dangers of blowing every bridge and why he shouldn't do any more (he'd already made it significantly harder for the Germans) - pointing out that scenario designers don't take it into account.

This turn he blew two more, and has engineers poised by a further two. Sigh.

Even if he doesn't blow the last, the attackers are left with single bridge to assault over. It's in the middle of a city so the attackers cannot suppress the defenders or use their numbers, and the defenders have oodles of artillery to target anyone coming over the bridge. In other words, the game is ruined as a contest.

This is a plea for designers to PUT A FRIGGING WARNING IN THE SCENARIO DESCRIPTION NOT TO BLOW THE FRIGGING BRIDGES if doing so gives an auto win. Some people are actually lame enough to do it.

/End rant!

Seriously, we were having an excellent game until he decided to pull this nonsense [:(] I am majorly bummed.



kool_kat -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/10/2011 4:25:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: McIvan

My opponent blew three of the eight bridges in a single turn, so I spent a fair bit of time emailing him about the dangers of blowing every bridge and why he shouldn't do any more (he'd already made it significantly harder for the Germans) - pointing out that scenario designers don't take it into account.

This is a plea for designers to PUT A FRIGGING WARNING IN THE SCENARIO DESCRIPTION NOT TO BLOW THE FRIGGING BRIDGES if doing so gives an auto win. Some people are actually lame enough to do it.



I can understand your frustration! [:@]

However, I'm not sure if you are a "victim" of a poorly designed scenario... or bad luck... or a combination of the two? [&:]

Historically, the Allies blew the majority of the bridges over the Dyle River on May 14... one day prior to the start of this scenario. But your opponent, being able to blow up the number of bridges you state... in 1 turn... shows incredible "luck" on his part? [&:]

I'm not a big fan of Bob Cummings designed scenarios... and after taking a quick look at "Defending the Dyle" scenario... it certainly looks like a bottleneck with few options for the attacker (Axis) other than charging forward ASAP... with a largely infantry force... and trying to capture 1 or more bridges over the Dyle before the Allies can blow them?

Personally, if it were my scenario design... I would have allowed other options... maybe more "open" (non-river) hexes on the flanks to allow some freedom of movement for the attackers... and defenders? Or have clear hexes (not bridges) over the Dyle that could not be blown... or mix up the "major" and "minor" river hexes to allow "some" movement over the river that did not require a bridge.

But having said that... if I were the Allies, I would employ any and all means at my disposal to secure a "win." If I have a bunch of engineers - I'm going to use them... and if an effective defense is blowing the bridges... than that's what I'm going to do? [&:]

It's really a shame your game has come to this.... especially a Complexity 9 one!



Jason Petho -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/10/2011 6:03:05 PM)

Any chance you can send me the files and your PBEM turn with your password?

I wouldn't mind taking a look and seeing if I can offer any solutions.

Jason Petho



HansHafen -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/10/2011 6:25:01 PM)

Mirrored game is the only feel good solution. You get to ram it back in his face on your other game! How do you like me neoooow!



MrRoadrunner -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/10/2011 10:26:13 PM)

Actually, if you get into the town on the right bank of the river you have probably already won the game. [;)]
If not you have an infantry force and artillery that can shoot the snot out of the Brits until your engineers can move forward and put up bridges that your infantry can cross.
Your engineers can be "anti tank" infantry with their great hard attack values. [:)]

With all the bridges gone, killing as many of the enemy as you can coupled with your most valuable engineers can still carry the day.

It happened to me ... twice! [8|]

RR



McIvan -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/10/2011 10:46:34 PM)

Ed, I'll be into the town outskirts by turn ten or eleven.

All: I migrated to JTCS from WF/EF etc, and Ed's (Mr Roadrunner's) reply was a "wait...what?" moment......so my engineers can build bridges now?  Any engineers?

I had no idea.

Jason: I'm at work and don't have the files here.  I will have a play tonight at building bridges with engineers.  and if I can build em, I'll then rebuild a bridge with my opponent after my last email!   Followed by overunning all his stuff east of the river and constructing fifty twelve bridges over the Dyle by way of apology.

Mwest:  Back in the WF/EFII days, at least (pending more info on engineer capabilities in JTCS), it happened occasionally, as nothing could build bridges.  I remember a tourney where the defenders discovered they could blow two bridges and score an instant win.  Much irritation ensued, to put it mildly.  So yeah, a player can take advantage of poor scenario design, but why would you?  It totally defeats the point of playing.





MrRoadrunner -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/11/2011 1:00:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: McIvan

Ed, I'll be into the town outskirts by turn ten or eleven.

All: I migrated to JTCS from WF/EF etc, and Ed's (Mr Roadrunner's) reply was a "wait...what?" moment......so my engineers can build bridges now?  Any engineers?

I had no idea.


Ivan, the points pile up when you trap them on the East bank of the river. Hopefully he destroyed all the bridges?

The new Matrix German engineers are awesome. A German engineer can build one bridge. After that he is a smoke, assaulting, and AT killing machine.

Use those German Mgs to disrupt and kill the enemy. Infantry to get in close to do the same and assault (granted you are playing with EA off). Bring the engineers in to support assaults, destroy enemy armor, and build bridges (once). [&o]

RR



McIvan -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/12/2011 4:23:36 AM)

He left himself one bridge in the city.

I don't have any of the new-fangled bridging engineers that pretty much auto-build a medium bridge, but I do have two coys of normal engineers that the manual says have a 20% chance/turn to knock up a light bridge, and so far as I can see they can do it multiple times (if there was enough time in a scen).  So off we go.



MrRoadrunner -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (11/28/2011 6:57:34 PM)

I'm curious to see how you did. Can you let us know?

RR



MrRoadrunner -> RE: Blowing Bridges to win a scenario (12/6/2011 1:54:18 AM)

Bump!
I'm still interested.
Ivan, how did it turn out?

RR



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