Air war component needs to be redone. (Full Version)

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Gewehr43 -> Air war component needs to be redone. (11/16/2011 1:35:34 PM)

Let us know when the air war is fixed to the point the soviets can't withdraw 5,000 aircraft on turn two and escape their historic destruction on the ground. Where flak works, at least a little bit, the germans can shoot down bi-planes, protect their own bombers and/or transports from bi-planes, produce more than 24 Me 109's a week and can control the air beyond November 1941. Sooner or later the support money will dry up for this game and the other minutia can wait until this 800 lb gorilla in the living room is fixed. I'm going to have to surrender an otherwise very competitive game because of this problem. On the Black Day of the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain the germans lost 40 bombers and they thought it was the end of the world. I lost 109 JU-88a's on the ground a few turns ago after my base was bombed 34 times by waves of obsolete soviets aircraft. The flak did next to nothing and even though I have loads more of it, it can't be added to the airfields...
After I do surrender I will make my game file available with the password to anybody who wants to take a look and check out the losses.

Just checked out the new patch and the fix for escorts vs interceptors vs transports. Outnumbered the russian fighters 2-1 plus and they still shot down 1/3 of the JU-52's under escort. Also I air transported supply to a para unit on the neighboring airbase, both bases way behind the lines and the soviet fighters intercept them! A few JU52' fly 10 miles to the neighboring hex and the soviets fly 100+ miles behind enemy lines to intercept them, OMG! How do they even detect this flight? Stop the insanity!
I also noticed air doctrine can't be changed at the beginning of the turn for several catagories even before any missions are flown. Is this right? It was the same for me last turn.



Joel Billings -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/16/2011 11:03:38 PM)

If you have a save for the JU-52 mission intercepted behind your lines, we'd like to see it. Also we'd be interested in a save for your JU-52s being escorted. Gary ran several tests after the recent changes but getting additional saves can help improve things. Please send saves to 2by3@2by3games.com.

We agree that wholesale withdrawals to the national reserve are gamey and players can agree to a house rule to avoid it. We are considering some kind of limit on this.

As for the 24 Me109's, I see in a recent test that by 1945 the Germans are producing 200 Me109s (a later model). I don't know the factory changes that take place over time, but I know a lot of research work went into the production system and it's likely fairly accurate. It's possible there could be a problem somewhere so if you have specific data to compare against the game, please post it and one of the data guys can take a look.

As for the airfield attack issue, many changes have been made since 1.04 so we're not sure if the gamey tactic of launching waves of airfield attacks will still work or if something else is going on that explains some cases where the LW was wiped out. Do you have a save for a particular turn that shows bad results?

We don't claim that the air model is perfect or doesn't have some problems, but getting good info and saves on reported problems is necessary to make any improvements.



Denniss -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 12:05:46 AM)

The 24 Bf 109 is three factories x8 (build limit on F-2 and F-4). In reality Germany built 1839 Bf 109 F-4 of all variants. Production of the F-4 is scheduled from 07/1941 to 04/1942. In the end about 1050 F-4, that's a "bit" on the low side.
Similar with the Bf 109 G-2, about 3000 G-1 to G-4 built but with three factories, a 10-month timeframe and a build limit of 15 you won't reach this number.
To be continued with the G-6, build limit of 30, ~12k to be built in 15 months with three factories is hardly possible.

On the opposite the G-6/R2 may have a limit set too high with 18 in one factory as only ~1100 G-6/R2, G-6/R3 and G-8 recons were built. Most of those recon variant were built in Wien, not Leipzig BTW.



entwood -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 1:03:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

I lost 109 JU-88a's on the ground a few turns ago after my base was bombed 34 times by waves of obsolete soviets aircraft.


Somebody actually did this to you? There should just be a limit to how many times the same base can be bombed in a turn.



Baelfiin -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 1:51:42 AM)

yeah it sucks

There is however what seems to be a gap in German fighter production starting in late 41 running through late 42. By late 43 you have more airplanes than you can fly (of all categories). The transitions from E7 to F2 and F4 seem to make actually putting fighters on the airfields difficult.



entwood -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 3:41:12 AM)

What would be nice is if there could be some threshold where aircraft at a base under 'extreme' attack just fly off elsewhere to another base auto or semi-automatically.  Then let them bomb basically nothing.  There should or needs to be some counters to this type of gamesmanship.

"Gamesmanship is the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win a game"



Baelfiin -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 3:49:39 AM)

If I am playing the soviets, I limit myself to 3 attacks per airbase. I figure that an air raid every other day is plausible through a weekly turn. When playing the germans I have asked my soviet opponents to limit air base attacks to no more than 6 per base per hex and it seems to work out.



entwood -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 4:00:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
We agree that wholesale withdrawals to the national reserve are gamey and players can agree to a house rule to avoid it. We are considering some kind of limit on this.


I keep coming back to the point that the old board wargames always seemed have a "Basic" game and an "Advanced" Game plus some Optional rules. Then everybody would be happy. The kids or "gamers" can gleefully pursue exploit upon exploit and the 'simulation' crowd can work within a more historical model in many ways.

Heck, charge a bit more for the Advanced Game.



gingerbread -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 5:13:11 AM)

Hm, I'm about to put my opponents 4th Pz Group units' MP's-to-rail in the high 70's with ZOC & terrain (it's 22+ hexes as well, but that is of his own doing). Realizing that there will very likely be some fuel drops, I had planned to stack my airbases in the vicinity with Mig's, Yak's & LaGG's (250 or so [:D] ). 

This would now be gamey, I admit. I'm going to insist he updates to 1.05.40 before he does his turn, but the fix obviously does not do what it was supposed to per Gewehr43's experiences above. What would be fair? 1 extra group of each - 3x20 = 60 FB's? No extra at all? Fighter intercept at max 40%? 20%?



Gewehr43 -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/17/2011 5:48:46 AM)

Joel,

I sent my last turn, latest version, and the results are easy to duplicate. It shows the intecept on my 1 hex supply drop 100 or so miles behind the lines and the Ju52s losing 20%+ while the German escort outnumbered the interceptors more than 4-1 on the actual airdrop. The para drop operation was also taken control of by the Romanian Air Command for some odd reason, even though no Romanian assets took part. The screenshot is the attachment in my first post in this thread.

Gewehr43



Gewehr43 -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/18/2011 8:46:51 AM)

Was running thru some scenarios with air units with the game file I emailed you guys. I launched a ground attack with a three unit stack, a division of Italians, a Romanian and a German. (northwest isthmus into the Crimea) I put the corresponding Corps HQ for each division behind the attacking stack. I set ground support to maximun and launched the attack aganst a single weak Russian infantry Div. All three units participated in the ground attack but only the Romanian airforce flew any ground support. The Romanian Corps commanded the operation for some reason, perhaps the amount of support artillery? Who should take command of the operation and is there cooperation between the Luftwaffe and the Axis minor airforces in any aspect of the air war?

Gewehr43



Mehring -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/18/2011 10:45:24 AM)

Perhaps a way to prevent wholesale transfer to reserve would be to count such transfers against rail capacity. Same should apply also to SU transfers and replacements



Brandle -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/18/2011 4:03:28 PM)

Didn't the Russians take control of the skies in Dec '41-Jan'42 because the Germans could not get their planes started in the cold?

I read this in BC/RS Vol 2.

Either way, I don't claim that my knowledge of history is perfect or doesn't have some gaps, but getting good info and data on reported events is necessary to make any improvements in my own understanding of the GPW. 

Thanks to the development team and everyone testing and giving feedback.



Gewehr43 -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/18/2011 5:26:41 PM)

I'm sure the Luftwaffe had problems during blizzard turns, both sides did, but this is a whole different level of problem. The losses suffered for the Luftwaffe fighters have been very excessive in my game and far too few for the Russians fighters. Local air superiority is one thing. Total air superiority is another. Historically the Germans were able to supply the Demyansk pocket of about 100,000 men by air without a great deal of difficulty for a couple of winter months. Thus their thinking it could be done at Stalingrad a year later.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/19/2011 9:43:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43
Historically the Germans were able to supply the Demyansk pocket of about 100,000 men by air without a great deal of difficulty for a couple of winter months. Thus their thinking it could be done at Stalingrad a year later.


This you have to put in perspective. Yes they were able to supply the Demyansk pocket so it could survive. But to do this they drained the reserve of JU52s AND many instructor pilots. The JUs were replacable (kind of) but the loss of instructors was crippling..

Also, the Demyansk pocket was quite small compared to the Stalingrad pocket...

Fact is the Luftwaffe lost more aircraft and pilots in 1941 then they were able to replace so they suffered a sharp quality drop..

The only thing wrongly modeled in this game (IMO) is the way soviet regiments gain experience and morale. Both are to high to soon... This influences the total losses they are taking...



Gewehr43 -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/19/2011 1:30:21 PM)

So what part of what I said is incorrect? They supplied the pocket of 100,000 men. Obvioulsy much smaller than Stalingrad. Whether barely or lavishly I don't recall and it really doesn't matter. The pre 1.50 patch game was admittedly badly flawed and resulted in rediculous German casualties. We already know that for a fact. I have no casualty figures for the Demyansk operation but I can tell you that they were no where near the kind of casualties I suffered in this game AND that there are numerous aspects of the air war that need tending! Not just one. But first things first. These guys are working on the problems and thats all we can ask. Nice poster BTW. I have a SVT-40 in my closet.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/19/2011 4:36:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

So what part of what I said is incorrect?


They supplied the pocket but WITH great difficulty and at a cost that made the 1942 luftwaffe suffer..

The luftwaffe fighters do seem to suffer to much. My theory is that they are very vulnerable to FLAK and op losses on top of the fact that replacements are hard to come by..



Gewehr43 -> RE: Air war component needs to be redone. (11/19/2011 5:19:52 PM)

W/E



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