Please explain (Full Version)

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topeverest -> Please explain (11/17/2011 12:10:09 PM)

Do task forces have to pass some sort of check to disband into port, even when controlling for correct orders, distance traveled, ops points, no reueling, etc. Is it dependent on the size of the port? I have had a number of situations where naval forces had moves of one or two hexes (in the night pulse to get to the destination) where TF speed was 7 or greater, and they either did not disband, or they stayed in TF until after a full round of air attacks.

Just understanding this aspect of the rules would really help me.




CT Grognard -> RE: Please explain (11/17/2011 12:22:15 PM)

Could be a number of things.

The TF could have run out of operations points, or, more likely, the port docking limit was exceeded?



dr.hal -> RE: Please explain (11/17/2011 12:38:47 PM)

But "disbanding" is NOT docking, it is anchoring or such moves along those lines. The only thing I can think of in relation to reality (but maybe not the game) is the simple fact of space. Very few places could "house" a large fleet. Maybe port POTENTIAL size is a factor, not sure. But that would make sense.



PaxMondo -> RE: Please explain (11/17/2011 1:29:41 PM)

I have also seen this and it seems to be a random bug to me. 

I can set a TF to travel to a port and auto disband.  99% of the time it will, but there absolutely are occurrences when it doesn't.  I can go back to the previous turn save and confirm the orders.  If I re-do the turn, it will disband, so it is not a repeatable error.  [:(]

Very hard to debug this type of issue.



Alfred -> RE: Please explain (11/17/2011 1:45:52 PM)

1. No limits apply to "disbanding" into a port. That is anchoring.

2. For the purposes of displaying the ships anchored, there is a limit on the number of ships anchored; originally 1000 ships, subsequently increased to 1300.

3. There are most definitely limits applicable to "docked" TFs and the activities they can undertake but that is not the situation described by the OP.

4. A TF will only automatically disband at its home port if it has its toggle switched to disband.[:)]

5. There is no automatic disbanding at the destination port.

6. The sequence of play outlined on pages 31-33 of the manual clearly shows that air operations occur well before TF adjustment occurs. TFs on auto disband only do so during the TF adjustment pulse.

7. Air units with "port attack" as their mission will target the port's facilities and there is a 50% chance they will also target ships disbanded. NB that when the number of disbanded ships is less than 10 the chances of the port strike targetting the disbanded ships is further reduced proportionally to the number of ships present. This air mission does not target TFs either "docked" or at sea within the area of the port hex.

8. Air units with "naval attack" as their mission will target TFs either "docked" or at sea within the area of the port hex. They do not target disbanded ships.

Alfred



witpqs -> RE: Please explain (11/17/2011 2:11:24 PM)

Very, very rarely something weird happens with a TF where it will not do certain things. When that happens, the problem, in my experience, will not fix itself with turn resolution (or even multiple turns). The fix is to create a new TF of the same type and pull all of the same ships directly in upon creation.

Mind you I am not talking about when certain limits are reached. For example, ops points apply per ship and when they are expended for a turn, that's it. And although they are not displayed, there are also limits on what a port can do such as how much refueling, cargo handling, etc. None of the limits the game has can be circumvented by creating a new TF, only 'stuck TFs' can be 'unstuck'.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Please explain (11/17/2011 5:07:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Do task forces have to pass some sort of check to disband into port, even when controlling for correct orders, distance traveled, ops points, no reueling, etc. Is it dependent on the size of the port? I have had a number of situations where naval forces had moves of one or two hexes (in the night pulse to get to the destination) where TF speed was 7 or greater, and they either did not disband, or they stayed in TF until after a full round of air attacks.

Just understanding this aspect of the rules would really help me.



One possibility is fire. Ships on fire won't disband until the fires are out.



Patbgaming -> RE: Please explain (11/17/2011 6:36:32 PM)

I believe the disbanding happens at the end of the turn ( in the turn sequence ), after all the air and naval moves and combat have occurred. That is the only time I have seen the disbanding TF message flash up on my screen anyway.



topeverest -> RE: Please explain (11/18/2011 12:13:05 PM)

Thanks to all. I was hoping I was doing something wrong, out of sequence, or foregtting something.



dr.hal -> RE: Please explain (11/18/2011 3:55:33 PM)

Alfred as the walking dictionary of WITPAE, when a ship/TF is docked (thus not disbanded into the anchorage), can it be hit by torpedoes? I think I read a restriction here along those lines. Also in terms of AA fire on port attacks, don't docked ships contribute but at 50% or is that anchored ships. So many variables so little time. Thanks, Hal



dorjun driver -> RE: Please explain (11/18/2011 5:04:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Alfred as the walking dictionary of WITPAE...


You know, if Alfred and michaelm ever got together in the same room, it would probably mean the end of the universe as we know it.

In a good way.



[image]local://upfiles/20478/444A40A853D44CB7942EDF25C358F1D8.jpg[/image]



Alfred -> RE: Please explain (11/18/2011 7:09:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Alfred as the walking dictionary of WITPAE, when a ship/TF is docked (thus not disbanded into the anchorage), can it be hit by torpedoes? I think I read a restriction here along those lines. Also in terms of AA fire on port attacks, don't docked ships contribute but at 50% or is that anchored ships. So many variables so little time. Thanks, Hal


1. A TF is a TF (except when we are talking about submarine TFs). It is irrelevant whether the TF is out at sea 400nm from land, or is at sea within 40nm of a port (aka in the same hex as the port), or is docked at the port.

2. A TF is targetted by an air unit with "Naval Attack" as its offensive mission. As such the normal criteria for aircraft to fly with torpedoes as their ordnance apply.

3. Ships which are anchored are much less likely to be "visited" by torpedo carrying planes. This is because:

(a) from the air, anchored ships can only be targetted by air units with "Port Attack" as their mission, and that mission does not always target anchored ships,

(b) there is only a small percentage chance that torpedoes will be carried by torpedo bombers, the assumption being that the anchored ships are protected by torpedo nets, are in drydock etc.

However don't breathe too easily at the escape from facing torpedoes. Very large bombs instead (aka 800kg AP by the Japanese) may be dropped. This depends on group experience, die rolls and how many first born have been sacrificed.

4. Aircraft attacking a port run the gauntlet of AA fire from both land installations and docked TFs. Unable to confirm that the TF AA fire contribution is only 50%. A dev (Nikademus) confirmed quite some time ago that port attack was SAIEW and I do recall classical WITP had something about the 50% contribution but whether that was a myth in classical WITP or confirmed by the devs back then I can't recall. Furthermore michaelm has tweaked AE port flak (land installation and docked TF) in the beta. I haven't tracked down the exact tweaked change.

5. Aircraft attacking a docked TF run the gauntlet of AA fire only from the anti-aircraft guns of the TF.

Alfred



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