Disappearing troops (Full Version)

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Bingeling -> Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 10:04:14 PM)

I am puzzled. I am playing my first legends game, and as usual I gather my troop transports in an invasion fleet.

So, I have something like 14 troops on a few troop transports going south for war. To my own system. I add automated ships as they fill up.

And every now and then I am puzzled about empty troop transports in the fleet. And now? 3 troops across 5 ships. No colony in the area has troops, so they have not been sneakily offloaded, nor have the fleet seen attacks or been outside friendly star systems.

So, where have my troops gone?

Have anyone seen anything similar? If troops suddenly die from being on a troop transport, it is a rather major change that should have been mentioned...



Erik Rutins -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 10:11:49 PM)

I haven't seen this at all. Right through testing the gold master, once my ships were loaded with troops, they remained loaded with troops until the troops were unloaded. If this continues to happen without explanation, please upload a save file and post a report in the tech support forum and we'll investigate.

Regards,

- Erik



elliotg -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 10:17:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
I am puzzled. I am playing my first legends game, and as usual I gather my troop transports in an invasion fleet.

So, I have something like 14 troops on a few troop transports going south for war. To my own system. I add automated ships as they fill up.

And every now and then I am puzzled about empty troop transports in the fleet. And now? 3 troops across 5 ships. No colony in the area has troops, so they have not been sneakily offloaded, nor have the fleet seen attacks or been outside friendly star systems.

So, where have my troops gone?

Have anyone seen anything similar? If troops suddenly die from being on a troop transport, it is a rather major change that should have been mentioned...

Doesn't sound like anything I've seen before.

Can you see the missing troops in the list in the Troops screen?



Malevolence -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 10:26:54 PM)

Are your ships/fleets set to automated?  The AI will move troops (load and unload) itself if it's running things.

Think about this --- an automated ship added to a non-automated fleet -- in my observation the ship doesn't become "manual" until the player actually issues another command to the fleet.





Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 10:47:34 PM)

It is hard to be sure what happens when you notice after the fact. But first I was puzzled by "why is this one empty?".

I have an autosave 1h30 back in time. My troop transports carry 14 troops numbered from 19 to 82.

In my newest autosave (1h30 later) I have only 5 troops with number lower than 100. 3 sits in a northern conquest from an earlier war, and one, the 93rd is on a troop transport. The transports have picked up troops "back home" since then, so I figure the 93rd sat at some colony in that first save.

I have 110 troops, though, a decent number.

Just a thought. I have automatic troop recruitment and as usual cashflow is in the red (and cash pool increases). Could it be that I have automatic troop disbanding? I have "always" had automatic troop recruitment with manual intervention, and never noticed this happen before.

Apart from that, I am getting spanked. I love it [:D]. The AI finally declare war with a purpose.
Losing troops in troop transports adds an unwanted layer of difficulty, though.



Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 10:50:38 PM)

Oh, an another thing.

110 troops. My highest troop number is 289. I have had a maximum of 20 troops killed by my estimate. So the AI has probably disbanded in the area of 150 troops.



elliotg -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 10:53:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
Just a thought. I have automatic troop recruitment and as usual cashflow is in the red (and cash pool increases). Could it be that I have automatic troop disbanding? I have "always" had automatic troop recruitment with manual intervention, and never noticed this happen before.

That's possible - the AI is disbanding your troops because you're out of cash.

This will only happen, of course, if you have Troop Recruitment automation turned on.

quote:


Apart from that, I am getting spanked. I love it [:D]. The AI finally declare war with a purpose.

No comment on the spanking, but I'm glad you're having a real challenge there [:)]



Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 11:00:54 PM)

I am not at all out of cash. Some 700k in cash, but a red cashflow in the 20k area. And bonus income to make a profit with the help of rich gifts from the AI empires. I think the AI struggles in this though, I have "suggest" on ship building, and during my war I see suggestions for 87k of new ships. But when I open the suggestion there is nothing there (all zero). Also very little suggestions for expenditure apart from colonies. which may be due to the negative cashflow.

And about disbanding 150 troops. I have not recruited very many myself. So he has hired them too...





Malevolence -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 11:07:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
... I think the AI struggles in this though, I have "suggest" on ship building, and during my war I see suggestions for 87k of new ships. But when I open the suggestion there is nothing there (all zero). Also very little suggestions for expenditure apart from colonies. which may be due to the negative cashflow.


You will notice that when you open the Building Screen the AI recalculates your needs at that moment... perhaps sometime after your minister suggested something and gave you a pop up to check it.




Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/23/2011 11:28:58 PM)

Will they always have a suggestion in the build order screen (if enabled)? I am not sure if it was like this in ROTS.



elliotg -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 12:00:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
Will they always have a suggestion in the build order screen (if enabled)? I am not sure if it was like this in ROTS.

If you have ship building automation set to Suggest or Fully Automate, then the Build Order screen will populate the suggested build amounts for each ship type.

However the suggested amounts are strongly influenced by your cashflow. So if you have negative cashflow, then the amounts will probably all be zero [:)]



Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 12:28:48 AM)

If you got some spare time, it would be nice if you thought of an alternative to the cashflow, as it poorly reflects the actual flow of cash. This is an issue for the AI only. How it is presented to the human player is less important.

Say for instance. Have the AI budget with bonus income. If it averages the last 3 periods of bonus income, it should be safe to spend that amount next period if cash on hand, say, equals 3 times that level. It should then be reluctant to spend below the money threshold (3 times bonus budget), and if it does it would cut expenditure to gain control.

I don't have a habit of peeking at the AIs cards, but from running with the AI in charge, it is obvious it amasses huge amounts of cash on hand due to bonus income (at least did in ROTS). At the same time there is little use for huge amounts of cash, as after a while you will hardly be able to buy anything with it anyways (trade items become very expensive).

This could help cure issues like "few space ports", and possibly stupid troop disbandment, and boost the military and economic strength of the AI.



Malevolence -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 12:45:32 AM)

I don't know if this is set in the race settings, but I notice some races seem more fruggle than others.



Kayoz -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 1:48:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

So, where have my troops gone?


I have had the same issue - though I have only noted it specifically with Teekans. What race were you playing?



Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 8:24:38 AM)

I am playing the Ackdarian.

Apart from both being quite passive, they are not exactly twin souls. It could explain why they want troops on colonies and not in troop transports, though.



feelotraveller -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:38:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

If you got some spare time, it would be nice if you thought of an alternative to the cashflow, as it poorly reflects the actual flow of cash. This is an issue for the AI only. How it is presented to the human player is less important.

Say for instance. Have the AI budget with bonus income. If it averages the last 3 periods of bonus income, it should be safe to spend that amount next period if cash on hand, say, equals 3 times that level. It should then be reluctant to spend below the money threshold (3 times bonus budget), and if it does it would cut expenditure to gain control.

I don't have a habit of peeking at the AIs cards, but from running with the AI in charge, it is obvious it amasses huge amounts of cash on hand due to bonus income (at least did in ROTS). At the same time there is little use for huge amounts of cash, as after a while you will hardly be able to buy anything with it anyways (trade items become very expensive).

This could help cure issues like "few space ports", and possibly stupid troop disbandment, and boost the military and economic strength of the AI.


+1

Also as a player I would be interested in knowing my total bonus income for the preceding 12 months at any given time rather than having it reset to zero at the beginning of each year. It would give me a much more accurate estimate of my real income rather than having to judge it largely by the seat of the pants. It would still 'bounce' with the periodic glut of civilian ships but should be somewhat smoother.



elliotg -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:47:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
If you got some spare time, it would be nice if you thought of an alternative to the cashflow, as it poorly reflects the actual flow of cash. This is an issue for the AI only. How it is presented to the human player is less important.

Say for instance. Have the AI budget with bonus income. If it averages the last 3 periods of bonus income, it should be safe to spend that amount next period if cash on hand, say, equals 3 times that level. It should then be reluctant to spend below the money threshold (3 times bonus budget), and if it does it would cut expenditure to gain control.

I don't have a habit of peeking at the AIs cards, but from running with the AI in charge, it is obvious it amasses huge amounts of cash on hand due to bonus income (at least did in ROTS). At the same time there is little use for huge amounts of cash, as after a while you will hardly be able to buy anything with it anyways (trade items become very expensive).

This could help cure issues like "few space ports", and possibly stupid troop disbandment, and boost the military and economic strength of the AI.

The AI already does this for ship building - it considers large excess cash reserves as effective additional cashflow. So even when you have negative or low cashflow it may still feel able to build new ships when you have a lot of cash on hand.

However this same rule was not being applied to troops, as you discovered [:)]

This is fixed in the patch coming out tomorrow - troop disbanding will also consider cash on hand and cashflow when deciding whether to keep troops or not (when Troop Recruitment is automated).



Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 10:00:04 AM)

This nicely explains the popup with the AI suggesting building ships for 87k. When I open the suggestion (ship building screen) there are none. This calculation is probably just done "once a year", and the additional funds are forgotten after that. So good for the AI, but not so good for a human building on AI suggestion (which does not hurt me, I just use the suggestions as entertainment).

The suggested amount was fairly constant, and probably like 20% of available cash.



Malevolence -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 3:31:50 PM)

you can also look in the empire policy screen to adjust percentages of each class of ship to affect the AI's build recommendations.



Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 4:08:45 PM)

I don't care much about the recommendations, but it look a bit silly with frequent recommendations of buying for 80-100k, and each time I enter the screen to peek at the suggestion all amounts are zero.

I guess it is a once a year calculation of budget (bonus income) which is then forgotten.



Grisha -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 7:00:46 PM)

I've been playing the Quameno of late (my kinda peeps, a species of geeks). Saw some troops disappear too. Or at least had some strangeness with loading troops. I noticed that if you want to make sure they load it's best done individually and not on auto. It almost seems there are two layers of automation: one for the individual units and one for the fleet. In most cases the switch between auto/manual at fleet level translates to individual level. Not sure how it translates when an individual element in an automated fleet is switched to manual.

I did have a fleet go weird on me when I sent them to attack a pirate base. Many didn't show up but hovered outside the system. This could be due to design-side tactic settings conflicting with fleet orders/postures.





Kayoz -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 8:27:33 PM)

Bingeling, I have found the same issue cropping up. I see the same behaviour when I reload.

Reproduced bug:
DisappearingTroops-Kayoz-20111124.rar

Load the 1st game file, let time tick away without interfering - watch the troops dribble away.

Savegame date
12-05 => fleet 2 => 15 troops (picked up troops from planet then sent to sit idle at gas mine)
5-10 => fleet 2 => 6 troops (sitting idle - where'd the 9 troops go?)
9-22 => fleet 2 => 3 troops (down to 3)



Bingeling -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 8:32:31 PM)

As he wrote, he will fix this in a patch real soon. At least I hope so :) Check Elliot's messages in this thread.

[:)]



Kayoz -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 8:55:28 PM)

Automated troop recruitment == automated troop disbanding?

So it only looks at income, and if it's negative, starts disbanding troops? I'm usually negative in the early expansion phase of the game, though despite that having a growing cash reserve due to "other sources" (civ shipbuilding, etc).



AlPhi -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:10:07 PM)

We saw this issue well before Legends. See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2840795&mpage=1&key=�



Kayoz -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:20:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlPhi

We saw this issue well before Legends. See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2840795&mpage=1&key=�


Was there any response to the issue?



AlPhi -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:24:08 PM)

Not beyond what you see in the linked thread. Also Erik and Elliot above both say they haven't seen this reported before.



Kayoz -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:34:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlPhi

We saw this issue well before Legends. See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2840795&mpage=1&key=�


I said it before. I'll say it again. Matrixgames seriously needs to consider a more organized system of collecting and promulgating its information. A "ticket" system for bugs, if only such that "trusted" forum members can escalate a report to a ticket, might be one solution. Also, there is a desperate need for an evolving FAQ - as it stands, the same issues keep coming up again and again.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:39:12 PM)

Hi everyone,

We have a fix for this in the upcoming hotfix.

Kayoz, are you volunteering to help evolve the FAQ? [;)]

Regards,

- Erik




Kayoz -> RE: Disappearing troops (11/24/2011 9:45:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Kayoz, are you volunteering to help evolve the FAQ? [;)]


I would be happy to!

If you're serious, a basic wiki style template would do for a starter. Control the "look and feel", and allow crowdsourcing to take care of the content. You've seen the time and effort people put into mods, not to mention the "energetic" disputes on the forum. Harness that energy.



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