RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (Full Version)

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Encircled -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/1/2011 9:53:10 PM)

"Four Battles of Army Group South" had Mainstein backhand blow as an scenario, and to reflect both Soviet C & C and supply issues, you could only have a certain number of armies in attack mode, and they could only go South and South West, whilst the others could move, but had half the movement rates*

*something like that anyway, its a long time since I played it, and its in the loft somewhere

Not really applicable for WiTE, but certainly something that showed C & C/Supply and Stalin/STAVKA control was still very active in early 1943.




Farfarer61 -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/1/2011 11:48:26 PM)

The Sov troops were likely quite happy to retreat safely east once they realized what was going on. So maybe the game engine needs more NKVD executions of Generals. Maybe 0.5-1.0 = 2-1 with even higher Sov casualties. Anyone done suicidal attacks with pocketed Sovs to avoid generating HIWIs ?
Perhaps allow the above suggestion for pockets only, so a) the Sov player will risk a solid front and b) knows he has a chance albeit very costly to do a "self break out ". Particularly when a fresh, but isolated Mech Corps only has the 1/131st Schwabische Wurstfest Security Regiment between it and freedom.

Summer 1942 has an OK feel in my current Sov game. I feel strong-ish, and not 'fearful', but my opponent still caused 25 divisions to surrender in his first "grind", so we shall see.




Harrybanana -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/3/2011 3:30:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Schmart,

Why do you say the "pull-back carpet/checkerboard defense" is historically implausible? Is it because the Russians didn't use this type of defense, or because you believe they were incapapable of doing so, or some other reason?


Yes, because I believe they were incapable of it. Considering the Soviet state of readiness, training, doctrine, and leadership during the first year of the Russian campaign, I can't see them pulling of an organized fighting withdrawl back into well prepared defenses in depth. By the summer of 42 they were getting better at fighting withdrawls (as signified by the German lament at far fewer pockets), and by the summer of 43 they were capable of massive defenses in depth at Kursk. But none of this was possible in 41 and early 42.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. In my opinion if the Fench army in 1940 was capable of forming relatively effective hedgehog defenses (given how badly they were outnumbered after Dunkirk), then I believe the Russians in 1941 were capable of the same thing. Prior to Weygand's innovation I don't think hedgehog defenses were part of the French army's training or doctrine either.




heliodorus04 -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/3/2011 3:53:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Schmart,

Why do you say the "pull-back carpet/checkerboard defense" is historically implausible? Is it because the Russians didn't use this type of defense, or because you believe they were incapapable of doing so, or some other reason?


Yes, because I believe they were incapable of it. Considering the Soviet state of readiness, training, doctrine, and leadership during the first year of the Russian campaign, I can't see them pulling of an organized fighting withdrawl back into well prepared defenses in depth. By the summer of 42 they were getting better at fighting withdrawls (as signified by the German lament at far fewer pockets), and by the summer of 43 they were capable of massive defenses in depth at Kursk. But none of this was possible in 41 and early 42.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. In my opinion if the Fench army in 1940 was capable of forming relatively effective hedgehog defenses (given how badly they were outnumbered after Dunkirk), then I believe the Russians in 1941 were capable of the same thing. Prior to Weygand's innovation I don't think hedgehog defenses were part of the French army's training or doctrine either.

Not on the geographic scale that is possible in WitE.
And further, communications technology was superior in the French army, both of which would be huge factors.




sillyflower -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/3/2011 11:01:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. In my opinion if the Fench army in 1940 was capable of forming relatively effective hedgehog defenses (given how badly they were outnumbered after Dunkirk), then I believe the Russians in 1941 were capable of the same thing. Prior to Weygand's innovation I don't think hedgehog defenses were part of the French army's training or doctrine either.


A tactic the French perfected at Dien Ben Phu ;)




Peltonx -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/3/2011 11:49:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Janh, it's mostly logistics.

The game is systemically biased in favor of the offense. So whoever is on the offense has a strong tendency to run away with it due to lack of a logistical leash. Early on, this is the Axis. Later on, it's the Soviets. There's also a fairly nasty feedback loop that plays into this so far as morale goes: nothing succeeds like success so far as unit morale goes and failure breeds yet more failure.


I started bitching about this back when I was playing Hoooper and trashing the flying Pig rule (1v1=2v1). Which I think should be 100% removed, but I was overjoyed with getting it removed after March 42 and shut-up on that issue.

The problem is German morale.

The dam German national morale is 50 and it is 100% designed to be 50 thats that dam problem late in the war or the major problem.

If the game worked as per the rules then there be no issue come 44 to 45. IF if if as German you could with draw units 10+ hexes from front and gain or have a snowballs chance in hell of gaining back a morale pt per turn then some units could recover morale.

The German army would not break so easly ect ect. It would still break. The numbers would have to be tweaked I am sure and would take several patches to get just right, but that is the problem.

I do not what a POS balanced game haters, I want a game all things being equal the Germam loses in early to late 45 as per historical. (Flaviusx not included in this comment).

I think once the morale issue is fixed(system by which the chance of gaining back a pt is tweaked up from a snowballs chance in hell). German national morale issue it should look like.

German national morale.

41 = 75
42 = 70
43 = 65
44 = 60
45 = 55

You might think 43 = 65 wth?

But thats better then 50 as it is now 100% by design.

Its a very very simple fix as was dumping 1v1=2v1, Flaviusx also did not like 1v1=2v1.

The late war issue is German morale not Russian. Other issues might effect change but none will have the desired effect of balance as would fixing the broken German national morale issue and be so simple and easy to code.

1+1=2 no forum lov or hate can change the problem (1+1) or the solution (2).

Pelton







Joel Billings -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/3/2011 5:19:37 PM)

I don't see the 50 German morale you are talking about in 1.05 games. Recent games show German morale coming throught winter much higher than it used to. We need to see some 1.05 games make it to 43-45, something AFAIK has not happened.




Flaviusx -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/3/2011 6:15:58 PM)

Pelton, I think you are misunderstanding my point about morale. It's not what you are claiming (and which I have seen no evidence of.) There's nothing capping the Germans at 50 morale and I really don't know where you're getting this from.

What I'm talking about is momentum. The more you attack, the more morale you gain, and the more you depress that of the other side. Since logistics don't particularly slow down the offensive, it's easy to create runaway conditions as a result. It's also why I don't subscribe to this idea floating around about suicide or soak off attacks. Bad idea. You should almost always contrive to win your first combat and do whatever you can to deny the enemy morale gains, and maximize your own. Possibly the only exception here is fort reduction attacks leading to the crossing of the Neva or somesuch -- attritional attacks designed to bag a major objective. But it's a bad idea otherwise. The only real brake on this morale feedback are the national morale caps.

The game's morale mechanic thus favors the offensive, and even as the defender you desperately want to find places to counterattack to deny morale gains and build up your own.




Harrybanana -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/7/2011 1:37:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Not on the geographic scale that is possible in WitE.
And further, communications technology was superior in the French army, both of which would be huge factors.


I don't see what the geographic scale has to do with it. If the French had had the men and the front line was longer they could still have deployed a hedgehog defense. If anything having a deep front (something the French didn't have) would have made this defensive deployment even more effective. In any event, in most AARS I have seen, and certainly in my own games, the hedgehog defence is not used along the entire front. At most it is generally only used for a length of about 10 to 20 hexes (ie 100 to 200 miles). I am also not aware that the French communication system, at least in pratice, was very much superior to the Russians. I seem to recall that at least one French offensive to try and breakout of the pocket was ruined due to poor communictaion. NATO did not invent the hedgehog defense, though it may have been the first to call it this.

I agree with you that there are some problems that may still need correcting to balance the game, I personally just don't think this is one of them. But even if you are right I don't see how the game designers can control where a player positions his units. They can't control this anymore than they can prevent the Axis player from building a line of fortifications in advance of a blizzard that he shouldn't even know is coming.




Harrybanana -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/7/2011 1:38:32 AM)

double post.




Harrybanana -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/7/2011 2:14:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04


Again, the history is completely immaterial to the game design.

To create divisions in game, Soviets need AP. For some reason, they have to pay a horrible penalty to build them in the first 20 turns. But then, to get around that 'constraint' in every meaningful way, during the same time period they get baby-sat with the safe knowledge that literally every division destroyed in this period doesn't need to be thought of again. Like hydra-teeth, they sprout up just when they're needed most.

Why have BOTH rules in effect? The free-units trump the need to think about the complexities of AP budgeting. If you enforced the mechanic that all units must be created through the expenditure of AP by Soviets. That would require adjustment of APs, to be sure, but the 1-size-fits-all of 50 AP per side throughout the game is another decision that says "throughout the game, both sides' C&C was roughly equal." Clearly that is not how historians view it... Not that I'm invoking history here to help my argument (I will only use history to undermine others' arguments).

The Soviets ALSO get to save FURTHER AP in that all these divisions arrive attached to Stavka, and can be seamlessly put into the line with complete efficiency like a NATO 1986 air-lifted defense. This is what I refer to as the double-punishment of Germany. They save AP, and any need to think of strategic tradeoff because they come back for free. They save AP again, without needing to think of strategic tradeoff, that these units can be attached to the closest/easiest/best spot for free (which is further compounded by the fact that Soviet divisions are 1/3 to 1/2 as expensive to transfer between HQs).

Soviet reinforcements in 1941 arrive in pristine C2 shape and can be easily slotted in perfect dispersal, perfect layering in depth, perfect organization of command. On the other side of the front line, the side that ACTUALLY trained to seize initiative, to act boldly from corps commander down to unterscharfuehrer, can't move a depleted division from the corps command to its parent army command for Rest and Refit without it costing 3-to-7 AP to move them (or more than 5% of their AP per turn, minimum for 1 division). Corps between armies is worse. And while Flavius and others will say that this is because Germany gets an extra layer of command for die rolls, etc., I say this: It doesn't matter, because the Germans have to pay more in leadership costs and AP costs to maintain that level of Command and Control. Soviets don't have to worry about moving corps between armies (AP savings) or moving divisions within corps (AP savings) or assigning leaders to corps (AP savings).

Many game design decisions that might appear to hurt the Soviet Union are undermined by rules or mechanics making up for it, as in the 'punitive cost to create units in 1941' being undermined by 'free units in 1941 for Russia YAY!'. To name another easy one, Soviet national morale is low, but it's far easier to recover morale at rest when your NM is low - bonus!). Meanwhile, Germany's high-morale starting army is hard-coded to pull Germany down regardless of what's happening on the map, in the losses column, or in the pools.

Other aspects of game design artificially assign parity to the two armies. The Soviet Union gains that benefit of easy re-assignment of newly arriving units, but Germany cannot HOPE to unwind its command mess in AGC and AGS until 1942. Why, when Germany was at its highest strength, is it forced by artifice to behave on parity with the Soviets?

Over and over again, game design shows favoritism to the Soviet side.

The ultimate, is of course, unit creation, which I won't even go into, because if you can't readily discern how big an advantage that is, I got nothin for ya.


Heliodorous,

I agree with you that it is unfair that the Soviets can build units and the Axis can't. If the Axis have the extra AP's, manpower and armaments I generally see no reason why they shouldn't be able to build new units and support units just like the Russians. The only exception may relate to panzer and motorized units. I say this only because I am not too sure yet (not having seen a game get to 1944) if the Axis will actually be suffering in the game from oil shortages as they did historically or not. If oil will be a problem for the Axis later in the War unless they are careful to conserve it, then I would remove this limitation as well. Does anyone know if this the case?

I don't agree with you though with respect to the free unit creation for certain Soviet units destroyed upto November 41. My understanding is that all destroyed German units get rebuilt for free throughout the entire game; so if anything the rule, at least on it's face, favors the Axis. In any event, the fact is that historically all of these destroyed Soviet units were rebuilt within a short period of time and then thrown back into battle. In the game the Soviet player would simply not have enough APs to do this if he only recieved 50 APs per turn. So since historically they were rebuilt the designers needed to come up with something to allow the Soviet player to do so in the game. One option would have been to give the Soviet player a lot more APs per turn, another would have been to give the Soviet player a large stockpile of APs to begin the game with, the third is to do what they did. What would you have liked to see them do?




marty_01 -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/9/2011 4:14:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01
I'm going to be quite honest here: Unfortunately what many players of WiTE may take away from your above posting is that it's pointless to play as the Axis as the simulation is being “rigged” from those on the "inside" of WiTE. I'm not particularly keen on the whole fan boy nonsense that's become the routine on this forum, but your opinion might be easily extrapolated or misconstrued to mean that we the "public" players of WiTE should only ever expect one outcome to this simulation.


Unfourtunately, WitE is NOT a simulation. Simulation implies using data that is as accurate as possible. Considering that the Russian OOB and force structure is widely customizable by the human player, I'd suggest the term 'simulation' be used sparingly. It's a game based on history, but not a simulation.


From your users manual:

"Gary Grigsby’s War in the East is a turn based simulation of the Eastern Front in World War Two from June 1941 to September 1945."

It's defined as a simulation by it's designers.




marty_01 -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/9/2011 4:26:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Heliodorous,

I agree with you that it is unfair that the Soviets can build units and the Axis can't. If the Axis have the extra AP's, manpower and armaments I generally see no reason why they shouldn't be able to build new units and support units just like the Russians. The only exception may relate to panzer and motorized units. I say this only because I am not too sure yet (not having seen a game get to 1944) if the Axis will actually be suffering in the game from oil shortages as they did historically or not. If oil will be a problem for the Axis later in the War unless they are careful to conserve it, then I would remove this limitation as well. Does anyone know if this the case?

I don't agree with you though with respect to the free unit creation for certain Soviet units destroyed upto November 41. My understanding is that all destroyed German units get rebuilt for free throughout the entire game; so if anything the rule, at least on it's face, favors the Axis. In any event, the fact is that historically all of these destroyed Soviet units were rebuilt within a short period of time and then thrown back into battle. In the game the Soviet player would simply not have enough APs to do this if he only recieved 50 APs per turn. So since historically they were rebuilt the designers needed to come up with something to allow the Soviet player to do so in the game. One option would have been to give the Soviet player a lot more APs per turn, another would have been to give the Soviet player a large stockpile of APs to begin the game with, the third is to do what they did. What would you have liked to see them do?


From the games user manual:

"The game is an “Alternate History Creator” that focuses on simulating the logistic and command and control problems that the historical commanders on the Eastern Front had to deal with. It will allow players to explore many of the strategic and operational “What ifs” that have been discussed by historians and armchair strategists for many years. As such, economic and research based “what ifs” are not the focus.

The designers clearly state that their focus is directed at operational level manuver and combat on the Eastern Front -- not production based decision making. I'm fine with this aspect of this simulation and dont have much interest into shifting player focus away from the original intent. But along these same lines, why are economic -- or should I say production aspects of econmics addressed at all? Why put control of support unit production into the hands of the players when the role of the player is defined as:

"As the Axis or Soviet player, you take the role of the military High Command to use the forces available to you to execute the conflict at the strategic and operational levels of war."

Why put manufacturing facility evacuation into the hands of the player? Why not keep all production -- for boths sides -- under AI control.




Farfarer61 -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/10/2011 1:23:41 AM)

12 O Clock BTR shows what happens when the Germans have a historical production control. By ignoring hugely powerful industrial lobbies you can convert the LW to 3 plane types ME109K, FW190 (something with bomber killing weapons) and the Uhu night fighter and destroy the Allies every time. You can have a Jet force in 1944 but why bother?

June 1941 - order everything to re-toll to Panther, regardless of impact. I have no tanks left in my Panzer divs by December anyway. Impact on game?
Stop production of all halftracks save Inf carriers and expand Pz grenadiers in 1941-42 - Impact?

Cease production of any AT gun less than 75 mm - impact?

Actually I just realized I would love this as the Russians are too powerful - please implement :)




Aurelian -> RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up (12/10/2011 1:37:29 AM)

Did that with Second front/War in Russia.

IL-4 and KV-85s.




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