1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (Full Version)

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Kayoz -> 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/1/2011 11:31:05 PM)

1.7.03 ship/fleet engagement stance resets to "engage system targets" no matter what it is manually set to.

This seems to be not only a continuation of an old bug, but it's actually gotten worse.

As an experiment, send a fleet to a system with some wildlife - say a kraltor floating about. Now, order the fleet to return to your homeworld. It won't - it'll reset it's engagement status to "engage system" and attack the beastie. This makes it rather tricky to target specific things (eg: leave the kraltors in a debris, but kill the giant jellyfishthing (forgot name) only). To say nothing of a fleet sent to raid a heavily defended system, targeting the soft installations but avoiding anything else.


This is incorrect behaviour due to:
1. manual orders should have priority over any engagement stance. If you order a ship to move out of a system, it should NOT override that and attack things.
2. engagement stance is broken (legacy issue) - it gets reset no matter what it's set to



elliotg -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 8:42:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

1.7.03 ship/fleet engagement stance resets to "engage system targets" no matter what it is manually set to.

This seems to be not only a continuation of an old bug, but it's actually gotten worse.

As an experiment, send a fleet to a system with some wildlife - say a kraltor floating about. Now, order the fleet to return to your homeworld. It won't - it'll reset it's engagement status to "engage system" and attack the beastie. This makes it rather tricky to target specific things (eg: leave the kraltors in a debris, but kill the giant jellyfishthing (forgot name) only). To say nothing of a fleet sent to raid a heavily defended system, targeting the soft installations but avoiding anything else.


This is incorrect behaviour due to:
1. manual orders should have priority over any engagement stance. If you order a ship to move out of a system, it should NOT override that and attack things.
2. engagement stance is broken (legacy issue) - it gets reset no matter what it's set to


The engagement stance is set based on the type of mission you assign to a ship.

Go to the Game Options screen (O key) and click on the Empire Settings button. In the Empire Settings screen alter the Default Engagement Stances for the specified mission types to a stance that suits you. If you do NOT want automatic engagement stance setting when you assign a mission to a ship, then select the setting "No default stance".



sbach2o -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 9:13:25 AM)

Note, that these stances in Options/Empire Settings are based on the order the ship in question is pursuing. The first two types of these orders 'Patrol' and 'Escort' typically do get overwritten when you issue manual orders during a battle.

I found that the category describing my misbehaving ships is 'Other'. When this is not on 'Attack System Targets', or something similar, the problems usually go away. However, this is a global setting, applying to all your ships without orders. It is rather desireable that ships which have been forgotten in some way or aren't at the time pursuing an active task (can happen to automated warships, too, between missions) do respond to threats in some way. This behavior is turned off when changing this stance to something not interfering with direct orders.

I find it rather unsatisfactory, having to fiddle with an option with global effects to reach a certain local result. Or am I missing something?



Bingeling -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 9:48:34 AM)

Hm.

One thing that is really annoying is ships chasing their target into enemy systems (hello, spaceport). They can be hard to convince to "get the hell out of there".

But really... If I got system OLD and NEW. The fleet sits in OLD where there is a battle going on, it could be as simple as a pirate escort failing to kill a mining base. I want the fleet to go to the other system, NEW. I think the game (or 1.7.0.2) had fixes to make ships pay more attention when doing simple tasks. But. While exiting OLD they are not anywhere near completing their move order to NEW. They should not worry at all about engagement stances until arriving in the NEW system. Now if I ordered them to go to "NEW 2 mining station" it would make sense to bolt straight to the battle of "NEW 8 gas mining station" the moment they exit hyperspace, if their stance is "attack system targets". They are in the correct system at this time.

And I don't think there is any stance that allows them to "ignore everything"? So I can't have a ship sit idle at the star of an enemy system waiting for its buddies to arrive before attacking. Not that the target system itself is a well chosen assembly point...

Or yesterday, in operation "border expansion". Quite a few things going on at once. A few colonies conquered, new space ports should be defended, pay attention to to incoming enemy fleets of other colonies (two of my old ones are attacked)... And combine this with "ships loves to chase their target home to dad".

So my final (fourth) conquest is done, I just want to delay peace until I have cleaned the local systems. I see the message "4th conquest space port is under attack from frigate...". Oh really? I am checking as I am sure the 43 ship, 9000 strength battle 2 was parked at that colony preparing from the inevitable arrivals to a recent conquest. So checking I can quickly notice no fleet marker in the system. But the 43 ship marker is heading straight to the nearby enemy system with a stream of warships in tow. I guess the battle 2 fleet leader attacked some freighter that ran away, and fleet members of course follow their leader when they have no specific order.

[image]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4196599215_fe9fef39d2.jpg[/image]

My default wanted engagement stance is.

"Sit at given object. Engage system targets. Don't you ever even consider leaving the system. And if not currently engaging a target, return to given object"

If a fleet sits at a colony it should sit at that colony. When an enemy explorer pops in, a number of ships according to engagement stance should try to kill it (if the fleet is "engage system targets"). But they should never follow when it flees. What will usually happen is that one of the ships deciding to chase it is the fleet leader, and when the explorer jumps the fleet leader tries to follow with its AI beloved crapski callista-dal hyper drive. And when you get the message about incoming fleet towards the assumed defended colony, the whole defense fleet will sit in deep space half a sector away where it either killed or lost track of the explorer. And the attacking troop transports need less time landing troops than a ship with stupid economy drive needs to enter hyperspace.

(But given that I have fought these issues before, the AI conquered 0 colonies in that war, I conquered 4).



sbach2o -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 11:14:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

My default wanted engagement stance is.

"Sit at given object. Engage system targets. Don't you ever even consider leaving the system. And if not currently engaging a target, return to given object"



I think you could have reached that effect in the described situation by giving the fleet a 'patrol' order and, to be on the safe side, make sure their engagement radius is set to system and check through the individual ships whether they have received that order too (at least make sure of this for the lead ship).

The actual behavior of your fleet in that instance may have been a surprise, but my guess is that the effect may have been a result of an engagement radius setting which wasn't adapted to the situation? Most likely the stances in 'Options/Empire Settings' played no role. Of course, I have no idea whether those can interfere with the fleet's settings in some way, some of the reports/discussion I am seeing on this forum hint that they might. I will have to pay more attention during play.



Bingeling -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 1:15:53 PM)

After some stance issues, I set my fleets to defense stance and "current object only". The fleets are not necessarily at home. I may forget some, there are many fleets.

Ships chasing enemies is my first old annoyance in war.
Ships that have chased not returning is another unless "return to fleet leader". If the fleet leaders chases the fleet will go with him. As far as I remember (game not open) there is no less aggressive stance than "engage if attacked".

The second old annoyance (and classical wish list item) is that there is no way to "lock" troops to a colony. You have to micromanage on a crazy level to have both troops in transports and a decent level of protection on all colonies. This means manually checking troop levels and manually assigning every load order to every troop transport. Not fun.

So during war, if you like me don't enjoy your ships to die due to silliness that is not your own, you basically have to keep scanning the map around battle zones looking for ships that appear to go somewhere they should not (Typically with personal attack order on some injured military ship/freighter/explorer). And make them return where you want them. All while doing this, you should remember to loop the Colony list, or at least check the likely targets that some troop transport did not take all defenders away.

Before yesterday's war I luckily checked my two eastern colonies for troops as I had released my troop transports on auto in the area. They had emptied the new conquest where they had dropped their troops in the last war, and the nearby colony (with spice). So I unloaded a few transports before gathering the invasion fleet and sending them back west. And good thing was that, because when the spice world was assaulted, the guarding 20 ship fleet had jumped out of the system, and I did not even notice the attack until the attackers had left and dropped its troops. Against insects with 134 strength cruisers, 4 750 strength late tech (AI) defensive bases and a medium space port of a bit less strength was not enough to keep the colony safe. The troops on ground did however slaughter a much more numerous enemy (maybe the space defenses helped, because troop strength was really much in my favor).

When I have two eastern colonies, among them two fleets that each one is more powerful than an enemy fleet. The colonies having medium and large space port ans 4 and 5 defensive bases. You should think that setting defend colony defensive stance on each fleet based one at each planet should make that area take care of itself? Of course during war much goes on, and it can be hard to be sure what is personal messups and what is attack stances and chase behavior messups.

I tend to automate empty troop transports, and during war I got messages of some being attacked. Checking, 6 of them had obviously chased some aggressor back to an enemy system. Why on earth would even an automated single troop transport chase something into an enemy spaceport of size medium+++? But those were automated ships, I can live with those being stupid.



geosch -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 1:18:45 PM)



[/quote]

I think you could have reached that effect in the described situation by giving the fleet a 'patrol' order and, to be on the safe side, make sure their engagement radius is set to system and check through the individual ships whether they have received that order too (at least make sure of this for the lead ship).


[/quote]

Unfortunately "patrol" does not work as you describe. I was about to report the same problem, and request an action named "STAY (or the penalty is death)".
I just destroyed my enemy's HW defenses (LSP and defensive bases) but was not yet prepared to invade the planet. All I wanted to do was set up a sentry fleet there that would destroy new ships/structures as they were built (and any rescue missions coming in). First I tried Blockade, but that seemed to allow the enemy to build his new LSP and defense base w/o comment. I then tried patrol, which worked for a while, until the fleet decided they wanted a Starbucks and wandered off (not chasing anything I could see). Of course, by the time I got them back to the HW, there were new (and updated) LSP and 3 defense platforms waiting for them.
I'm sorry, there is too much going on in this game to allow this kind of behaviour. I need to be able to count on orders being followed until countermanded. I don't have the time, or interest, to refight campaigns already won. Organizing and managing battle fleets in this game already demand too much attention.



Bingeling -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 1:55:23 PM)

This was my problem yesterday too. Guarding a defenseless colony. Shoot ships that approach. Shoot structures being built. But STAY. Don't follow the buggers exiting the system, they are told to stay at the colony. Single ships can be allowed to roam the system if they find suitable targets (like a mining base). And then return to colony. I don't want to have to pay a system like that attention. It could also be a situation where the battle on the ground is progressing nicely, and you just want to make sure there are no reinforcements incoming by ship.

If the fleet disappears, I guess it is either a combination of stance and range, or the fleet leader being on an exiting ship's tail. The rest will follow leader, and I don't think the leader will return (as he is the leader and has no leader to go to).

Maybe I should get a special admiral class ship with no guns at all, long range scanner, evade behavior, a ton of shields, and every gadget and long range scanner in existence. Make it slow too, so it can't just run off... Kind of hard when you want the AI to do ship design, though.

The good thing about letting AI do research and design is that it makes the game harder. Stupid troop loading and ship behavior also makes the game harder, but that is the unfun kind of hard.



Locarnus -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 4:52:12 PM)

@elliotg: no, definately a bug, and a game braking one...

quote:

I have a major issue with fleet/ship control.

I dont know whether this was present in the previous betas.

My manual commands are overwritten all the time.
I have a ship in an enemy (pirate) system. It has 1 damaged component. When the shields were down, it refused to obey my commands. I send it to repair and refuel. It tried to escape, but didnt use the hyperdrive! It was impossible to issue commands from there on. They were always overwritten with the stupid escapce without using hyperdrive.

Previously it always wanted to attack the pirates bases in that system. It was impossible to order it out of the system. Within seconds all orders were overwritten with the attack order.

If I give the command to refuel/repair, escape or move somewhere else, those commands cant be overwritten by the ai.

Now I have a massive ships (800 firepower, full 1300 shields) in an enemy system, moving along with speed 10, escaping some mini pirate frigate and I cant issue any orders to it.

edit: I have now deleted that enemy frigate. My ship now tries to flee (of course without using the hyperdrive) from the carcass of an enemy destroyer, which has no energy and no engines anymore. This is ridiculous.


I could come back 10 minutes later and it would try to escape at cruise speed from the carcass, and there would be nothing I can do about it, every one of my commands gets immediately overwritten and it refuses to use the hyperdrive for escape. Its literally stuck in that system. If I order another ship in to kill that carcass, the other ship wont react to my commands, until the legendary pirate base in that system is destroyed. So effectively I would have to sacrifice 1 of my ships to get the other one out of the system, that is, if the escaping one would then escape and would not want to single handedly attack the piratebase. [:@]



Bingeling -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 5:02:27 PM)

Just verified against the phantom fleet. Destroyer fleet fights for a bit, but are losing slowly against a bunch of escorts of whatever.

I tell them "move to that system". Those outside the system (happy chasing) quickly leave. One guy in the system flutter between "go to xxx system" and "attack xxx" and does finally after a long time get into the air. This is with a 6 second launching torrent drive, btw. With that drive, the ship should be in hyperspace after 6 seconds plus the time it took to turn in the right direction. Given somewhat agile destroyers, 10s max. I don't mind it taking a few pot shots while launching, though.



Fideach -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 5:38:22 PM)

I have to say I've seen my fleets behave in the same bad ways. Even with the stances set to no stance in the empire settings. I've had fleets do it and I've had individual ships do it. Ships sitting around doing nothing even while being swarmed under with enemies (even though there stance is set to patrol, and to engage system targets), or just happily ignoring any command I give. Even had one military ship ignore my commands while fleeing some defense base it attacked with out orders, and was on the other side of the system from it and still ignoring my command.

I've also been seeing groups of patrol ships, like escorts fly off to the middle of no where, even sometimes to the point they run out of fuel.

We definitely need more control over them, and the ability to black list systems for our automatic military ships never to enter. I have countless ships getting blown up by the Ancients, cause they keep wanting to go there for one reason or another. I've had ships just sitting in there system and others, doing nothing.. Not even patrolling like they are suppose to.



Sithuk -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 6:03:16 PM)

+1 to blacklisting systems as no go zones for the ships on Auto.

I too have observed the fleets seemingly ignoring a move order to save their skins. They revert almost instantly to attack again. I admit I need to look into the fleet postures a bit more though.



geosch -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 6:06:14 PM)

or how about this (today) - I have a fleet of 8 cruisers patrolling the enemy's HW and he brings in a fleet that concentrates its fire on just one of my cruisers, that cruiser fires back as expected, BUT the rest of the cruisers just just mill about the HW while their comrade is getting picked apart! (oh yeah, the enemy was earlier also building a new LSP and defense base, but nobody was taking a shot at those either). This requires almost 100% attention, while the rest of my empire goes off the rails.



Bingeling -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 6:09:52 PM)

I fired a shot at a constructor (at peace) to turn it away from making a mining base in my new system. This made ships attack this aggressor, and he was not helped by his buddies. They kept coming back for the poor cruiser quite a bit later as well.

Poor chaps, it was not a good idea for them to fire at that cruiser, though. He shot back :)



Brynder -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 8:55:41 PM)

+1 for the blaclisting of systems for any ships. Getting two laser armed harmless explorers shot and killed by The Ancien Régime while refueling.



Fideach -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 11:00:15 PM)

Had another idea that might work, with or with out the blacklisting option.. the ability to do empire wide orders on your military forces.
Particularly the ability to order your automatic military ships to only operate with in systems you either have bases in, and\or systems that are part of your territory.

I think that should reduce the amount of choices they have to make while deciding where to patrol, and keep them from wasting time in locations that they don't need to be in. Especially in hostile empire systems where there presence just makes things worse and leads to wars.

Speaking of which, if we can't get either of the above options, can we at least have the Ancient Guardians set to allow military refueling rights by default. My patrol ships wont stay out of there home system and is always getting me into trouble with them while getting blown up.



Bingeling -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/2/2011 11:08:28 PM)

My automated frigates simply love sitting in the guardian system to annoy them as much as possible. They go there in huge numbers at times. And this has nothing to do with escorts. I wonder if they are attracted to guardian ships in my systems (at their base), and follow them back home or something.



Brynder -> RE: 1.7.0.3 - ship/fleet engagement stance (12/3/2011 12:03:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fideach

Had another idea that might work, with or with out the blacklisting option.. the ability to do empire wide orders on your military forces.
Particularly the ability to order your automatic military ships to only operate with in systems you either have bases in, and\or systems that are part of your territory.

I think that should reduce the amount of choices they have to make while deciding where to patrol, and keep them from wasting time in locations that they don't need to be in. Especially in hostile empire systems where there presence just makes things worse and leads to wars.

Speaking of which, if we can't get either of the above options, can we at least have the Ancient Guardians set to allow military refueling rights by default. My patrol ships wont stay out of there home system and is always getting me into trouble with them while getting blown up.


Has to be blacklist or refuel rights definitely because of the escorts escorting traders and more so because explorers usually are NOT going to stick to your empire's domain or else very little of the galaxy gets explored, they are considered military ships if carrying weapons by the Ancients it seems. Not funny to see them splode while refueling from the Utopia world. Also could utilise the empire borders so that the escort stops at another empire's border (not while your own territory stops if there's unclaimed space after that) if not at war with said empire (or at least stay out of their systems).

On a side note the military ship management IS impossible yes in 1.7.0.3 when there are hostiles in range. Yes I want the pirate base in the system destroyed because this or that reason, no I don't want the Slugs and other stuff to be destroyed also from the debrisfield because my empire is so far away that just yet I can't get to it myself. But the ships just won't aknowledge my orders to get home after the pirates. Annoying. Not to mention all associate problems already mentioned also. Very frustrating.



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