RE: Japanese fighter cap fighter effectiveness against B-17 or B-17 (Full Version)

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Crackaces -> RE: Japanese fighter cap fighter effectiveness against B-17 or B-17 (12/4/2011 8:40:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I feel the problem is damaged planes like B17 maybe repairing too fast and maybe planes with higher maintenance numbers need to suffer more op loses.


This is the problem in a nutshell. Whilst the 4E bomber vs Jap fighter losses (roughly 1:1 in my games) are realsitic enough, the fact that the Allied player can up 200 plus 4E raids every other day is not.


Hmmm The USAAF was mustering 300 B-29's every other day from Saipan ... that plane type had the worse maintinance record ..

But the problem is deeper .. WitP AE is neither a game according to strict defintions, and certainly not a similation. It is more akin to a story in my opinion. The IJ beats up on the Allies and then all heck breaks loose that leads to the inevitable ..

IJFB's do all they can and try all kinds of rationale to soften the blows that eventually come ..

One of the most interesting conversations I had was with Pax ... I reasoned basing bombers in Russia was an ahistorical "gamey choice" as much as invading Oz since both had political adversity to doing so .. of course .. invading Oz is a differnt situation [;)] also the game does not handle invasions of Oz well as the Allies are defenseless from forming supply lines like the Red Ball express .. of course that is different .. [:'(]

We can argue all day long .. allies produce a lot of stuff and GreyJoy's thread demonstrates that even when down and out scenario #2 under some of the most restrictive home rules .. that stuff can be put to use effectively and turn the tide .. . In fact .. things are deeply in trouble early '44 ,..



JeffroK -> RE: Japanese fighter cap fighter effectiveness against B-17 or B-17 (12/7/2011 5:07:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Dresden?



Not exatcly their finest hour....



We'll try Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, London

the Luftwaffe at its best!



pharmy -> RE: Japanese fighter cap fighter effectiveness against B-17 or B-17 (12/7/2011 9:24:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces



One of the most interesting conversations I had was with Pax ... I reasoned basing bombers in Russia was an ahistorical "gamey choice"




If Russia enters the war then its not a completely gamey choice, although basing would exceed the capacities of the Russians, but shuttling wouldn't, in Europe under operation Frantic, the 15th airforce and on a couple of occasions the 8th did it and certainly the US would have loved to use the Russian Far East. And on occasion it could be a double edged sword, like Poltava (http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2011/March%202011/0311Poltava.aspx ). I imagine an HR could be used to allow for a single bombing mission to simulate shuttle bombing(with a ferry to, and ferry out of in the previous/subsequent turns) to mount an attack on Northern Japan/Sakhalin/Kuriles. Or even previous to that perhaps in China. Maybe the rule should be a ferry move out not in the next turn, but the next two turns, and that would allow the Japanese a crack a their own "disaster at Poltava".



Crackaces -> RE: Japanese fighter cap fighter effectiveness against B-17 or B-17 (12/7/2011 4:51:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Dresden?



Not exatcly their finest hour....



We'll try Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, London

the Luftwaffe at its best!



I might propose that the crossing at the Dinant bridgehead was the Luftwaffe's finest hour .. 850 aircraft take out and/or interdict an armored division so Rommel can cross the river almost unopposed ... despite the inferior armored tatics if the 1st armored div makes it to the Meuse ...it turns back into a WW1 situation and attrition. Play the Dinant bridgehead in ASL with the optional rules of Char B's already in position to get a feel of what that meant ..

Actually bombing London and Coventry was the begining of the end of the Luftwaffe ...




Nikademus -> RE: Japanese fighter cap fighter effectiveness against B-17 or B-17 (12/7/2011 5:07:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
Hmmm The USAAF was mustering 300 B-29's every other day from Saipan ... that plane type had the worse maintinance record ..


Saipan in late 44/early 45 represented one of the most concentrated logistical support efforts in history. As it was, there were still serious issues with aborts when LeMay arrived to take things to task. You can't compare the situation on Saipan to the situation say, in Australia in 1942.

And yes......the underlying issue is repair from damage, not losses. Planes in general, not just 4E's are not shot down in droves, nor is there an exponential increase based on gun size.




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