RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (Full Version)

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Bison36 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 11:57:49 PM)

I actually like the SOI as implemented. Now if I could get my pesky neighbors to stop building mines in the systems that are by rights mine to colonize....



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 12:04:20 AM)

Seriously... tell me this isn't much better than pre-borders?

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ASHBERY76 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 12:10:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

Seriously... tell me this isn't much better than pre-borders?

Dumb Link to a picture of VERY GOOD BORDERS Because Free Hosting Websites Won't Let You Direct Link Without a Membership Anymore


That screenshots illustrates the topic post pretty well about the new colonies SOI hardly getting any bigger.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 1:10:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

Seriously... tell me this isn't much better than pre-borders?

Dumb Link to a picture of VERY GOOD BORDERS Because Free Hosting Websites Won't Let You Direct Link Without a Membership Anymore


That screenshots illustrates the topic post pretty well about the new colonies SOI hardly getting any bigger.


To be fair, this is a game with 19 random empires, and abundant colonies. Also, it's only 2780. The colonization phase isn't even over yet. Right now, the galaxy has settled into some obviously "Core" Empire zones, and a whole bunch of "Up for grabs" colonization zones. Wars are being fought over it. This seems fairly reasonable, considering in another ten years or so I'll have over 25 planets at 1000M+ Population, which provides a big enough influence boost to concentrate the colors a bit.

I do think Influence could stand to be increased for new colonies, but I don't think it's that bad. The fact that borders seem to get better the closer together potential colonies are, is pretty telling. If you want to see the borders at absolute full effect, try a game at 10x10 with 1400 Stars and Abundant colony prevelance.



hal9000 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 3:09:14 AM)

A thing I'd like to see introduced would be a maximum colonization range, because I think the two reasons that maps get so messy are 1) the trading of galaxy maps and the subsequent ai rush for every empty planet no matter how distant it is and 2) that volcano and ice races have a monopoly on their planet types till late game and don't care much about how far spread out their colonies are.
Europa Universalis had that well done e.g., there your colonization range would increase with your technological advance and I think it would also be easy to make this as an adjustable setting.





Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 4:32:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hal9000

A thing I'd like to see introduced would be a maximum colonization range, because I think the two reasons that maps get so messy are 1) the trading of galaxy maps and the subsequent ai rush for every empty planet no matter how distant it is and 2) that volcano and ice races have a monopoly on their planet types till late game and don't care much about how far spread out their colonies are.
Europa Universalis had that well done e.g., there your colonization range would increase with your technological advance and I think it would also be easy to make this as an adjustable setting.





Even something as simple as Armada's method would be good. Just an overlay that shows how far out you can sustain colonies.



feelotraveller -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 5:57:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

Seriously... tell me this isn't much better than pre-borders?

Dumb Link to a picture of VERY GOOD BORDERS Because Free Hosting Websites Won't Let You Direct Link Without a Membership Anymore


Off topic: You could try photobucket. As of a day or two ago I'm still direct linking without any membership.

On topic: I don't see a huge problem with far flung colonies. Other than the fact that they are just asking for a quick invasion to sort out the situation. [;)]



Malevolence -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 8:41:17 AM)

I like the spheres but I don't like the arbitrary rules imposed by the game. who's to say I can't drop a mining station inside someone else's sphere if I want. if you're strong enough to remove it go ahead and try. the brinksmanship and escalation is missing given the rules and insistance on total war or total peace.



Torgrim -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 11:14:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hal9000

A thing I'd like to see introduced would be a maximum colonization range, because I think the two reasons that maps get so messy are 1) the trading of galaxy maps and the subsequent ai rush for every empty planet no matter how distant it is and 2) that volcano and ice races have a monopoly on their planet types till late game and don't care much about how far spread out their colonies are.
Europa Universalis had that well done e.g., there your colonization range would increase with your technological advance and I think it would also be easy to make this as an adjustable setting.


Yes colonizing range is very much needed, I always get a little hurt inside when I see AI Empire have colonies all over the map just because there is no range limit for colonizing planets.



MasterChief -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 2:31:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Torgrim

quote:

ORIGINAL: hal9000

A thing I'd like to see introduced would be a maximum colonization range, because I think the two reasons that maps get so messy are 1) the trading of galaxy maps and the subsequent ai rush for every empty planet no matter how distant it is and 2) that volcano and ice races have a monopoly on their planet types till late game and don't care much about how far spread out their colonies are.
Europa Universalis had that well done e.g., there your colonization range would increase with your technological advance and I think it would also be easy to make this as an adjustable setting.


Yes colonizing range is very much needed, I always get a little hurt inside when I see AI Empire have colonies all over the map just because there is no range limit for colonizing planets.



Hmmm... this brings up an interesting possibility.

First - I don’t agree with limiting colonization limit. If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed. Examples in history include the ancient Phoenicians and Greeks who colonized to the extreme limits of their technology (and yes this made for some messy boarders and diplomacy).

However, there should be tradeoffs. Besides an increase in maintenance, colonies at extreme range should be more susceptible to rebellion and establishing independent colonies (Ancient Carthage and the not so ancient USA are great examples) [;)]

So before chartering that colony ship you would need to consider if it is worth the extra money, naval and troop presence and governor character assignment that would be needed to keep the colony in the empire. [sm=happy0029.gif]



martok -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 7:17:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

who's to say I can't drop a mining station inside someone else's sphere if I want. if you're strong enough to remove it go ahead and try. the brinksmanship and escalation is missing given the rules and insistance on total war or total peace.


I strongly disagree. It's the "brinksmanship and escalation" (as you put it -- personally, I call it bulls***) that I can't stand.

I still have just vanilla DW, and whenever another race colonizes or builds a mine that's clearly in my sphere of influence more than their own (and/or is obviously closer to mine), it drives me up a wall. It feels very "gamey" to me, and detracts from what is otherwise a great sense of immersion.

Maybe the SOI introduced in Legends is also gamey in a different way. However, from what has been said about this feature so far, it "feels" right....or at the very least, more right than my neighbors being able to build a shed on my proverbial front lawn!




WiZz -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 7:42:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torgrim
Yes colonizing range is very much needed, I always get a little hurt inside when I see AI Empire have colonies all over the map just because there is no range limit for colonizing planets.


Are you kidding? Let's suggest other delusional proposals to game.
I totally agree with sbach2o. SoI at this form is something strange, artificial and illogical. I'm not against SoI, but it needs a lot of tweaking.

My modest suggestions of tweaking. Please, support [&o]

- Permit colonization and mining in SoI, but with big reputation/relation hit. The ships of intruder can be destroyed without warnings and reputation of defender is not affected.
- Add to diplomacy warning about colonizing and mining on my territory with threaten war or trade sanctions.
- Add to diplomacy colonizing rights for 1 or few planets for exchange money, technologies of something else.




Torgrim -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 8:11:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torgrim
Yes colonizing range is very much needed, I always get a little hurt inside when I see AI Empire have colonies all over the map just because there is no range limit for colonizing planets.


Are you kidding? Let's suggest other delusional proposals to game.


Please elaborate.




WiZz -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 8:52:12 PM)

If this feature would be implemented it will simplify game greatly for HUMAN player, no AI. How can it explain logically? And MasterChief said right thing: "If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed."
And let's imagine some situation. In game your empire are surrounded by enemy empires and there are no good planets for colonization, but you found a few fine planets far from th home. How you feel cannot colonizing them?



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 9:01:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just to put everyone at ease, one of the things we're considering for Spheres of Influence is a setting that allows you to adjust their strength or weakness to your liking.

Regards,

- Erik


What would the ETA be on this? When this is done I will be happy.



Malevolence -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 9:11:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: martok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

who's to say I can't drop a mining station inside someone else's sphere if I want. if you're strong enough to remove it go ahead and try. the brinksmanship and escalation is missing given the rules and insistance on total war or total peace.


I strongly disagree. It's the "brinksmanship and escalation" (as you put it -- personally, I call it bulls***) that I can't stand.

I still have just vanilla DW, and whenever another race colonizes or builds a mine that's clearly in my sphere of influence more than their own (and/or is obviously closer to mine), it drives me up a wall. It feels very "gamey" to me, and detracts from what is otherwise a great sense of immersion.

Maybe the SOI introduced in Legends is also gamey in a different way. However, from what has been said about this feature so far, it "feels" right....or at the very least, more right than my neighbors being able to build a shed on my proverbial front lawn!


I respect your opinion. In fact, my personal games are large sandboxes with few starting races. No goals at all.

That said if you think it's "gamey", it's gamey in way that supports a real suspension of disbelief...

"US warships head for South China Sea after standoff"



Torgrim -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 11:18:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

If this feature would be implemented it will simplify game greatly for HUMAN player, no AI. How can it explain logically? And MasterChief said right thing: "If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed."
And let's imagine some situation. In game your empire are surrounded by enemy empires and there are no good planets for colonization, but you found a few fine planets far from th home. How you feel cannot colonizing them?


The feeling is damn I need to research better engines that's my feeling, it works in Armada hell it even worked really well in old Master of Orion 1 and 2 so i don't see why it cant work here.

And with your example it's like crossing straight over your AI Empires to colonize a distant world sounds to me pretty unrealistic, best approach in that scenario is get allies and wage war instead.



hal9000 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 11:20:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

If this feature would be implemented it will simplify game greatly for HUMAN player, no AI. How can it explain logically? And MasterChief said right thing: "If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed."
And let's imagine some situation. In game your empire are surrounded by enemy empires and there are no good planets for colonization, but you found a few fine planets far from th home. How you feel cannot colonizing them?


so, what's the problem with an adjustable setting as I proposed?
clearly there are some people who want the game to be less messy and some who are content with its actual state, so why not introduce a customizable solution that satisfies both?



hal9000 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/7/2011 11:42:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterChief
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting possibility.

First - I don’t agree with limiting colonization limit. If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed. Examples in history include the ancient Phoenicians and Greeks who colonized to the extreme limits of their technology (and yes this made for some messy boarders and diplomacy).

However, there should be tradeoffs. Besides an increase in maintenance, colonies at extreme range should be more susceptible to rebellion and establishing independent colonies (Ancient Carthage and the not so ancient USA are great examples) [;)]

So before chartering that colony ship you would need to consider if it is worth the extra money, naval and troop presence and governor character assignment that would be needed to keep the colony in the empire. [sm=happy0029.gif]


wouldn't the correct comparison to real life be phoenicians and greeks colonizing south east asia and ancient china grabbing some colonies in europe, whilst the arabs colonize every available desert between mojave and gobi cause they are the only ones capable of living there [;)]



Malevolence -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 1:23:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hal9000
wouldn't the correct comparison to real life be phoenicians and greeks colonizing south east asia and ancient china grabbing some colonies in europe, whilst the arabs colonize every available desert between mojave and gobi cause they are the only ones capable of living there [;)]


[:D] this made me laugh... a lot.



Torgrim -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 10:44:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hal9000


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterChief
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting possibility.

First - I don’t agree with limiting colonization limit. If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed. Examples in history include the ancient Phoenicians and Greeks who colonized to the extreme limits of their technology (and yes this made for some messy boarders and diplomacy).

However, there should be tradeoffs. Besides an increase in maintenance, colonies at extreme range should be more susceptible to rebellion and establishing independent colonies (Ancient Carthage and the not so ancient USA are great examples) [;)]

So before chartering that colony ship you would need to consider if it is worth the extra money, naval and troop presence and governor character assignment that would be needed to keep the colony in the empire. [sm=happy0029.gif]


wouldn't the correct comparison to real life be phoenicians and greeks colonizing south east asia and ancient china grabbing some colonies in europe, whilst the arabs colonize every available desert between mojave and gobi cause they are the only ones capable of living there [;)]



Distant worlds colonization logic in a nutshell...lol



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 11:27:50 AM)

We are playing a game so please stop asking that everything be super-realistic ( it's spaceships in space that go pwee pwee for God's sake [:'(] ).

I just don't unersyand why are some people so against SOI?

Hopefully, Elliot can just crate an On and Off switch an that can be the end of the story.



feelotraveller -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 11:52:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HectorOfTroy

I just don't unersyand why are some people so against SOI?



They obviously want the computer players spamming mining bases in their home system. [:D]



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 12:10:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller


quote:

ORIGINAL: HectorOfTroy

I just don't unersyand why are some people so against SOI?



They obviously want the computer players spamming mining bases in their home system. [:D]


I say they can play the original DW [:'(]



J HG T -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 12:16:18 PM)

Yeah, great fun that. Got enough of it in original DW and RotS. [8|]
Sois "realism" may be debatable (we are in friggin' near infinite space, not on relatively tiny earth), but gameplay wise it makes DW a lot more manageable and interesting to play, and makes enough common sense to be a justified feature.



feelotraveller -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 12:28:18 PM)

In all fairness there are a variety of opinions on the SoI. Removing it completely is an extreme position and not one I could ever support. I like SoI's and like them to be kept strong (even in war... but I think that discussion is a lost cause now) otherwise what is the point?

The size and expansion rate of SoI's is a trickier question. I think partly it has to do with map settings. The same size SoI in a cluster vs on an irregular map encompasses a significantly increased number of systems. On a cluster map outside of a cluster it may well encompass nothing. Then throw in number of systems and map sizes and what a SoI covers in pragmatic terms (ie. system numbers rather than distances) varies a great deal. Of cause expansion rate also has markedly different effects depending on the density of systems in the region. So I think that sometimes we are comparing apples and oranges.



WiZz -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 1:57:14 PM)

Hmmm... If Elliot will make a button, which totally turn off SOI, it's acceptable for me.

quote:

They obviously want the computer players spamming mining bases in their home system.


In rots I didn't look such events.

quote:

I say they can play the original DW


*facepalm*

quote:

Yeah, great fun that. Got enough of it in original DW and RotS.
Sois "realism" may be debatable (we are in friggin' near infinite space, not on relatively tiny earth), but gameplay wise it makes DW a lot more manageable and interesting to play, and makes enough common sense to be a justified feature.


I told not only about realism. This feature totally kills action and unpredictability in a gameplay. It simplifies game a lot. I found simple and effective tactics. Now I can just colonize bad planet and my territory covers pleasant planet which can settle in future. AI can do in answer nothing. Especially, it's very easy for races, that can colonize volcanic and ice planets from the start of game. Somebody can say that colonizing of bad planets hurts my budget, but it's not true. I check it many times.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 1:59:28 PM)

Well, the AI doesn't do that. So, since its a single-player game, the only thing stopping you from using that exploit would be YOU.



WiZz -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 2:22:09 PM)

If SoI was done logically this exploit would not have been. Can you remember that situation in rots?



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/8/2011 2:33:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

If SoI was done logically this exploit would not have been. Can you remember that situation in rots?


No, but RotS was hardly devoid of exploits you had to avoid using. C'mon, man.. It's common sense. The AI doesn't do it. Those planets don't even show up on your list by default. I'm sure it never even occured to anyone but you to even try that! That's the thing with this game, you'll never plug all the holes. It's just way, way too big for that. But by making the decision not to exploit it, you can vastly improve your enjoyment of the game. I promise!



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