Change in German Strategy under 1.05

Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 9:02:23 PM)
I think more players are playing this way, but IMO, the conventional wisdom of concentrating the South in 1941 is wrong now. Right in the past, but now wrong. In the past, South was prioritized, because of Industry and Population centers, plus the clear terrain offers better opportunities to surround and destroy Reds. With all the changes, though, I think a Moscow-first strategy is now wise. Here is my thinking: 1. Focus on Armaments means Soviets can stay ahead of industry hunting anyway for the most part 2. Change in RR rules means NORTH is easier to fuel; you can't "double-up" in the South anymore 3. 1942 changes mean you can realistically save the south for a '42 push 4. Tougher terrain means it's tough to make headway up north in '42; you have to do it in '41 I think others have figured this out, like my opponents, but I think this is the new conventional wisdom Discuss.

Flaviusx -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 9:04:16 PM)
You can also grind the hell out of the Red Army up north. And that's the most important reason to do it.

Q-Ball -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 9:09:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx You can also grind the hell out of the Red Army up north. And that's the most important reason to do it. Indeed, Soviets have to defend those cities, while in the South, it's easy to let the Germans outrun their fuel

Ketza -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 9:29:24 PM)
I really dont think there is going to be a "certain way" to do things as Axis in this game. That is a good thing. Different approaches in 1941 should all lead the Axis to be in a position in 42 for one last great push then be in great condition to go over to the strategic defensive. As more games get into 43 and beyond I feel the most important thing impacting games will be the condition, experience and organization of the Soviet army. After reading AARs and seeing for myself the game trends I think this aspect of the game is a bit under estimated. The organization of the Soviet Horde and the balance between fast units and the ponderous artillery/infantry corp blob is going to be delicate. Against a formidable Axis strategic defence a slow cumbersome Soviet army just wont make it to Berlin in time now that the Axis army is more resilient.

JAMiAM -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 9:33:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball Discuss. Shush! You're giving away my secrets![:D]

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 9:51:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JAMiAM quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball Discuss. Shush! You're giving away my secrets![:D] What secret? He's giving away the original German plan also known as Barbarossa. Why the players decided to ignore it, it's another story [:D] I loved to see how they chased ghosts in the south. And by the way, Q-Ball, the manpower and industry are still in the south. People are stubborn: they thought the grial was there: I take manpower = no Red Army. Utterly wrong. The Germans got Rostov and then Stalingrad and this did not stop the Red Hordes from getting to Berlin. People will always try to see the light at the end of the tunnel. It was futile in this case... And now, finally they are back to the ORIGINAL German plan...

kevini1000 -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 11:26:21 PM)
What is the change in the RR rules that you are refuring to btw. And is the Riga gambit totaly off now.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 11:29:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sath What is the change in the RR rules that you are refuring to btw. And is the Riga gambit totaly off now. Not sure these changes radically change the whole thing. German players are still grabbing the same places in the south under 1.05 [&:] Rostov is usually the last stop (or almost).

kevini1000 -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 11:33:22 PM)
What is the RR rule he it talking about. I looked at all the changes and didn't find anything.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/9/2011 11:38:25 PM)
I have no idea, I tend to not read the readmes [:D] Bad thing, I know.

gingerbread -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/10/2011 12:08:14 AM)
You can still do some FBD doubling up around Odessa and Ochakov, since the 4 hex distance can be traced from ports. Railing the Pz Corps that unfreezes T2 to Galati is an option to expedite the extreme southern route.

ragtopcars_slith -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/10/2011 12:14:49 AM)
I started under the 1.05.42 beta against the computer on normal, and it has been one hell of a fight! I pushed hard for Leningrad, and am now starting to shift forces on Moscow... AGS is just completely out of fuel after capturing Kharkov... Seems pretty realistic to me! I will post some screen shots and numbers once i get to the December time frame... Moscow in my sights, but the computer really started fighting as i approached Vyazma... great game!

DTurtle -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/10/2011 12:39:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sath What is the RR rule he it talking about. I looked at all the changes and didn't find anything. Outside the Baltic Zone rail can only be repaired up to 4 hexes away from a working rail head. Before, it was possible to repair up to 6 hexes (I think) from a rail head - something that was only supposed to be possible in the Baltic Zone. So, having 2 FBD units repair on one line made it possible to move the rail head forward that much faster. This was fixed and is no longer possible.

Farfarer61 -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/10/2011 1:13:45 AM)
Who runs out of fuel anymore? Fatigue maybe. quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx You can also grind the hell out of the Red Army up north. And that's the most important reason to do it. Indeed, Soviets have to defend those cities, while in the South, it's easy to let the Germans outrun their fuel

delatbabel -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/10/2011 4:13:41 AM)
Having played a few FTF games (I prefer those now to PBEM) it's becoming more evident that the early part of the game, and into 1942 is a game of Germany acts / Russia reacts. That should come as no great surprise to anyone (not any more than if I were to say that it's been discovered that the Pope has links to the Catholic church). The Russians do, however, have a few options to defend in what they believe are (a) critical sectors and (b) areas that the Germans are likely to concentrate force. The biggest pastings I've received as the Russians have come in games where the areas that the Germans did concentrate force were the areas where I least expected them to. I believe that since 1.05.4x or so a competent German player should be able to easily take either Moscow or Leningrad in 1941, and take either the other or Stalingrad, in early 1942. A competent Soviet player, in 1941 or 1942, should be able to defend whatever the Germans don't throw their best forces at. That doesn't mean that Moscow-first or Leningrad-first or south-first is the optimum strategy, but what it does mean is that if the German player thrusts at Moscow and the Soviet player expects him to thrust at Leningrad, or vice-versa, then that will be the optimum strategy in that game. I'm playing one right now where I really expected the Germans to go hell for leather at Leningrad in 1941. I've just seen the first thrusts at Moscow and now I realise I'm wrong and it's too late to do anything about it. Moscow will fall in t12 and I won't have the last of the industry out. Tough luck, as we say down here.

janh -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/10/2011 10:52:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball I think more players are playing this way, but IMO, the conventional wisdom of concentrating the South in 1941 is wrong now. Right in the past, but now wrong. In the past, South was prioritized, because of Industry and Population centers, plus the clear terrain offers better opportunities to surround and destroy Reds. With all the changes, though, I think a Moscow-first strategy is now wise. Here is my thinking: 1. Focus on Armaments means Soviets can stay ahead of industry hunting anyway for the most part 2. Change in RR rules means NORTH is easier to fuel; you can't "double-up" in the South anymore 3. 1942 changes mean you can realistically save the south for a '42 push 4. Tougher terrain means it's tough to make headway up north in '42; you have to do it in '41 I think others have figured this out, like my opponents, but I think this is the new conventional wisdom Discuss. I totally agree. You kind of already shape your 1942 summer campaign with the opening of your first attack on Russia. And in 1942, slow grinding through harsh terrain and against a formidable, slowly strengthening Red Army around Moscow doesn't sound promising. The only thing, truly, in the south is the manpower, and I believe only to a lesser degree armaments. If lacking armaments, the Soviet Army will just reshape differently around Tank formations, but these pack a good punch nonetheless. It will have to rely more on maneuver, rather than brute force grinding with Arty Divs and Rifle Corps then, though, but the effect could be even more devastating once major breakthrus are scored. You can still make excellent headway in the South even if you don't focus there. Sending 1 Panzerdiv, 1 Mot. Div. and Mot. Reg. Gro�deutschland south appears to be sufficient to seal the Lvov pocket, and with that, you kind of change the character of the war in the south totally. Then it requires just one more large, or two-three medium to small pockets to get free for a rush on Stalino and Kharkov, which leaves Kiev and all Soviets at the upper Djenper wedged between 6th Army's Infantry and AGC's southern formations. It is more a matter of timing I have the impression, once Lvov is secure as the Soviets will already be badly wounded and off-balance. The key is to make these pockets in short order, and achieve a simultaneous breakthru via Kirovograd towards Dneprpetrovsk and Krivoj Rog (spelling?) while also getting a foothold north of the Djenpr say somewhere east of Cherkassy. I don't think the Red Army can really do much about it for several turns, and with HQ-build up or even just HQ supply shuffling, you can make huge leaps. Whether Rostov is still in the cards, or is rather the Leningrad of the south, might be a function of how decisive your pockets would be.

Scook_99 -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/11/2011 11:46:51 PM)
I know this game is closer to most others to being correct because on one thing: logistics. The rules on how supply gets to the front has a bigger impact on gameplay than anything else. Leningrad and Moscow are closer than Kharkov and Stalino, therefore a better use of the Summer of 1941 would be to head towards these targets. I agree this also give the best chance to beat on the Soviet Army, which really feels more important now for prolonging the shift in momentum. There are still some subtle nudges needed, but this is close. The southern gambit to cut off the southern Soviet force on the border is still a good move (think pre-emptive Kiev pocket that won't happen vs. a human opponent), but those units head back north for the push through Smolensk.

heliodorus04 -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/12/2011 1:25:18 AM)
There is a problem for the Axis force, however, in disguising Moscow as the main effort. I think most experienced Soviet players can tell when army group south is under-powered and army group center is the driving force to summer. As such, reinforcing on the usual schedule means the same amount of Soviets as between Orel and Stalino, but compressed between Orel and Kalinin. This plays to Soviet strength in favorable defensive terrain. Furthermore, the manpower disruption between Tula and Kharkov, as you can see on my resources map, are the same as those at Moscow. Which is an easier area for the Soviet Union to defend? [image]local://upfiles/30405/30C946A468CE4F5096C3066C6B4EFA10.jpg[/image]

Q-Ball -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/12/2011 1:34:35 AM)
Helio: First, that map KICKS BUTT! [&o] Need to bookmark that. Of all the factors, MANPOWER to me is most important, because that's the one thing that can't be moved. Even so, you have to discount that a bit by the fact that some population will flee. Nevertheless, it's the thing to go for, after the Red Army. Now, to answer your question: What is harder? The terrain around Moscow is harder, but supplies are easier. And in the end, I think supply wins. One part on your "German Possible" map that is probably the toughest is Voronezh/Lipetsk, not because of terrain, but because there is almost no way to get fuel out there except by plane or HQ chains. Again, great map PS: What would be nice as a reference; you have "furthest possible" german, also would be nice to see what "minimum probable" looks like. A certain % of the Soviet Manpower is automatically lost, like everything west of the Dnepr.

heliodorus04 -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/12/2011 2:17:36 AM)
Full credit where it's due: Emir Agic made the map and did an initial analysis WAY back in 1.04 days. I was simply bright enough to get a copy and refer to it now and again.

CarnageINC -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/13/2011 8:20:14 PM)
Bookmark it hell! I'm going to save that puppy in my AAR folder in my references! Thanks for sharing on that Helio [&o]

Commanderski -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/14/2011 1:30:49 PM)
Excellent map! Thank you for sharing it with us.

Peltonx -> RE: Change in German Strategy under 1.05 (12/15/2011 1:21:41 AM)
1. South is still the most important area for me. It has the same manpower as Leningrad + Moscow. You can take it easly because most Russians are giving it to the German players. I can use the extra land to retreat during blizzard, its all easly retakeable during 42. The south forse needs 4 extra divisions to start the campiagn, but once across the rivers they can be returned to AGC. 2. The 2nd most important target is Leningrad. It can be held and get fins in the game, which greatly shortens front for 42. 3. Moscow. yes grinding can be done if or if not its taken. Even if you take it chances are your going to lose it over the winter unless your playing someone that is new to game. I 100% agree it very doable now and taking the manpower from the Red for even 6 months is huge. The only thing thats changed for me is manpower centers are the bottleneck now. Pre 1.05 was about armament post 1.05 its about manpower. The south has the most manpower. Katza is right, it depends on the game. As German you must be very flexable. The better the Russian can defend the south and north the better his chances are of holding Moscow. As German all hope is lost if you cant take the south and north. If you focus on center and dont get it done, then your smoked long run. The only thing thats changed is Russians can't evac population.

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