Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (Full Version)

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n01487477 -> Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 1:06:06 AM)

Sandman can you post a save file from 1106i. I only have the version for the beta. Thanks



n01487477 -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 1:32:53 AM)

OK now I get the same as you. Weird last night it was working!
this is under 9b

[image]local://upfiles/19798/3C01554014D54DFB971DD518BD2787F3.jpg[/image]



sandmann_slith -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 2:14:08 AM)

ok i have make a save to test at 1106 i .
is zhe 09.12.41.
all Cv´s and Cvl´s and one Cve from this time stay in Tokio .

First test round :

1106i.
6 cv,2 cvl, 1 cve rest fill out with dd to 25 ships
Only stay in harpor not doked.

[image]http://www.abload.de/img/testbild1ir755.jpg[/image]

after one day

[image]http://www.abload.de/img/testbild295o6y.jpg[/image]

no one point full needed .


the counter test with beta 8q9b
is not the same date are i use the same ships to test:

[image]http://www.abload.de/img/testbild37yrcw.jpg[/image]

after one day in the harbor hex

[image]http://www.abload.de/img/testbild4ldqcr.jpg[/image]


ca 7 % of full endurance was use .

the first attachment ist testsave file from 1106i




sandmann_slith -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 2:19:18 AM)

and here the file from 9qb :




n01487477 -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 2:26:49 AM)

Yep, I'm getting the same as you now. Last night was different and I think I'll see if by changing files around that has made a difference.

I have to go out now but will test later today

OK ?



sandmann_slith -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 2:31:13 AM)

ok
good night



michaelm75au -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 3:07:40 AM)

It is as I said in earlier thread. The TF is using endurance to perform air ops in the hex - basically 1 endurance point from each ship in hex for each plane launched.
More CVs, more planes flying, more endurance.

Checking the old and new code, there were some changes here.
1. For CAP/ASW/Search patrols:
(a) In old code, 1/3 of planes launched was deducted from endurance of TF ships. This deduction happened even if no planes were finally launched for some reason.
(b) In new code, this was moved to after planes were launched so that no fly meant no endurance used. However, the number of planes launched is deducted from endurance rather than 1/3 as should have been.
2. For other 'strike' missions:
(a) In old code, the number of ready planes was deducted from endurance of TF ships. This deduction happened even if no planes were finally launched for some reason.
(b) In new code, this was moved to after planes were launched and only the number of planes flying was counted.

As 1 and 2 are basically similiar, I most likely copied the updated 'strike' code to 'patrol' and forgot to add the 'divide by 3'.

In addition, if the TF is docked and some air ops are performed from a ship in the TF, then just that ship uses endurance. Assumption is that if air ops could be done, then the ship probably sailed out some way from the port to launch the planes before retiring back to port. Originally, the whole TF would have used some endurance.




sandmann_slith -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 3:20:33 AM)

ok are this are 7 or 9% from overall full and endurance ?

i think this is to many .




michaelm75au -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 5:37:59 AM)

I don't know why 1106i does not decrease the TF endurance, unless groups were not allowed to fly for some reason. The patrol code definitely use to decrease the TF endurance by 1/3 of the number of planes launched (Of course, if it launched 1 or 2, then no endurance would have been lost).

While a bug, the 1/3 is not what is causing the endurance to be used - granted it is currently using 3x what it should have been using, but it is not consistent with what I am seeing once I take that into consideration. I suspect fixing a different bug elsewhere has exposed something else, but it would have been this way for last several months.

Sandman overloading the TF with CVs has made it more obvious.

[edit]
Seems to be the standby CAP that is causing the difference. In my earlier tests of this issue, I would have stood down all groups in order to concentrate on the problem. Thus I didn't initially notice any extra burn in port as no planes were flying.

New view after one day in port
Basically the CVs that had stand-by CAP show endurance used. The other CV groups were training, on strike missions (but not in range of targets) or had only 1 or 2 planes on ASW/Search/CAP missions.
If the TF operates groups on normal CAP/ASW/Search missions with more than 3 planes at a time, then the TF will expend endurance as with the pre-beta versions. A change traced back to around 1108q (Sept 2011) seems to be pivot point of this problem.

[image]local://upfiles/3086/E0BD4D697EE74C378A9644A5D13C702E.jpg[/image]



sandmann_slith -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 10:22:36 AM)

use are littel bit fuel is ok.
are  i have 2 points .


wthen i use one cv  he lose 1 or 2 % ,
then i use more cv´s in same tf  all ships in tf lose not one ore 2 % . she lose 7 - 9 % and not only the cv´s .

Next point is

take the kaga to exampel.
dhe has 72 Ac and i bring this all to sky lose for 72 Endurance for this day is ok are i lose 560 or 720 enurance.


i think it givs follow problem.
then i use one cv he make it correkt and take ca one % .
are then i use more cv the program take all planes from this tf and make ist so take the same endurance from any ship in tf, what the tf has as AC.

i have 600 and more plane me tf lose any time 600 and more enurance .
are not overall .
ship for ship lose this .
i think this is the failure



PaxMondo -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 12:31:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

[edit]
Seems to be the standby CAP that is causing the difference. In my earlier tests of this issue, I would have stood down all groups in order to concentrate on the problem. Thus I didn't initially notice any extra burn in port as no planes were flying.

New view after one day in port
Basically the CVs that had stand-by CAP show endurance used. The other CV groups were training, on strike missions (but not in range of targets) or had only 1 or 2 planes on ASW/Search/CAP missions.
If the TF operates groups on normal CAP/ASW/Search missions with more than 3 planes at a time, then the TF will expend endurance as with the pre-beta versions. A change traced back to around 1108q (Sept 2011) seems to be pivot point of this problem.


Michael, WOW. Thanks for chasing this one down!!!

[&o][&o][&o]

Thanks to Sandman for bringing it up and Damian for helping to pursue. Public Beta TEAM!

[sm=00000436.gif]



sandmann_slith -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 1:54:28 PM)

Ok i use the new r6 .
Looks better very better thanks.

Are question can man make are more diferent ?

CV has planes, ca Has Planes .
Use the planes in any mission, ok use the andurance.
Are the DD has no planes are he use the endurance from all ships in Taskforce.
can we change this point ?



witpqs -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 2:19:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandmann

Ok i use the new r6 .
Looks better very better thanks.

Are question can man make are more diferent ?

CV has planes, ca Has Planes .
Use the planes in any mission, ok use the andurance.
Are the DD has no planes are he use the endurance from all ships in Taskforce.
can we change this point ?



Could you explain a bit more what you mean here?

The reason CVs use more fuel when they fly planes is that they have to move at a greater speed when they launch them and recover them. The TF does not split during those times, all ships move along with them. The CV, etc. still need to be escorted, and it is one TF after all.



michaelm75au -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 2:53:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandmann

Ok i use the new r6 .
Looks better very better thanks.

Are question can man make are more diferent ?

CV has planes, ca Has Planes .
Use the planes in any mission, ok use the andurance.
Are the DD has no planes are he use the endurance from all ships in Taskforce.
can we change this point ?

The TF has always used up endurance during air ops. Part of original WITP. This is not a beta thing.

Nature of ships moving as a taskforce is to conform to the operations of the major ships (in this case CVs).



sandmann_slith -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 4:06:20 PM)

i just remembered why there is use of endurance at all ??? the planes should use supplies as it always does and the carriers have a max number of sorties so why use fuel too?


( me brother has translate it for me )



n01487477 -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 4:10:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandmann

i just remembered why there is use of endurance at all ??? the planes should use supplies as it always does and the carriers have a max number of sorties so why use fuel too?


( me brother has translate it for me )

Not sure I understand correctly, but I think witpqs said it best

quote:

The reason CVs use more fuel when they fly planes is that they have to move at a greater speed when they launch them and recover them.


CV don't carry supply. But you're correct on land plane operations use supplies. Out at sea sorte's and fuel is used.



JuanG -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 4:19:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandmann

i just remembered why there is use of endurance at all ??? the planes should use supplies as it always does and the carriers have a max number of sorties so why use fuel too?


( me brother has translate it for me )


Because carriers did not just sit still which conducting air ops. At the very least they would turn into the wind at low speed, and if launching heavily loaded strike aircraft, would have to do both that and steam at higher speeds.

Not to mention that it can be assumed that a TF in the open would be moving back and forth a little anyway to avoid subs.



witpqs -> RE: Sandman Tests (fuel consumption) (12/10/2011 4:26:41 PM)

Sandmann,

The issue is that aircraft carriers have to move at greater speed so that they get more wind over the deck. That wind provides the planes with greater air-speed, which is what they need to get airborne. Remember that carriers are short compared to land runways. The same applies when landing - the carriers move faster so the planes don't stall when going so slow they can land on the carrier.

The endurance used is not to supply the planes with fuel, it is the extra fuel used up by the ships as they move faster to launch and recover planes. Also, when launching or landing aircraft, the ships will move into whatever natural wind exits at that time. Most of the time that wind will not be coming from the same direction in which the ships wish to travel (where you have told them to go). So, the TF loses even more efficiency with their fuel because they are going in the 'wrong' direction!

The 'sortie' count on the carrier is the same as the supplies that land-based planes use. Notice when a carrier goes to port and 'refuels' that it also replaces its sortie count. That takes supplies away from the base. So, the sortie count is like the carrier loaded the supplies on board for later use by the planes. The supplies in this case are an abstraction for both the aviation fuel and ammo, spare parts, etc. that the planes use.



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