Intercepting transports - oddities (Full Version)

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Puhis -> Intercepting transports - oddities (12/10/2011 9:28:59 AM)

I've been using LRCAP of Zeros, Oscars and Rufes to intercept transports flying surrounded enemy base.

With any plane I get message that transports are intercepted. The oddity is that only Rufes seems to be able to shot down transports. So far Rufes have shot down 25 transport planes, Zeros and Oscars nothing.

I have used all kind of combinations:
Only Rufes - they get kills
Rufes and Zeros - only Rufes get kills
Rufes and Oscars - only Rufes get kills
Only Zeros - no kills
Only Oscars - no kills

Overall experience and air skill of Zero and Oscar pilots is better that Rufe pilots. Zero and Oscar units have much more planes, so Zero and Oscar LRCAP must have more planes than Rufe LRCAP. But still only Rufes get kills - and I'm absolutely sure about this. I begin to feel that this not just bad dice rolls...

Situation is same with two PBEM games, one using last official patch and other using 1108p6 beta.

If save file is needed, I'm can try to get one.



michaelm75au -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/10/2011 11:59:20 AM)

It is fairly abstract.
The first flight found in range is used to intercept. It could be that the Rufe groups are low numbered and would be created before higher numbered groups.



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/11/2011 7:53:07 AM)

3 more turns.

1st turn: one Oscar sentai flew LRCAP. Transports were intercepted, but no kills.
2nd turn: two Oscar sentais flew LRCAP. Transports were intercepted, but again no kills.
3rd turn: two Rufe squadrons flew LRCAP. Transports were intercepted and three Dakotas was shot down. Both squadrons got kills.

I still find it odd that so far only Rufes seems to be able to kill transport planes. [&:]



Patbgaming -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/11/2011 11:01:23 AM)

I have seen similar in my game. I was attacking Suva and was flying LRCAP to try to prevent my opponent from brining in supply or extracting troops. I would get the Transports intercepted message every turn but never actually shot down any planes. Once I captured the base without his retreating from it, I put a Squadron of fighters in Suva on CAP and only then did I actually shoot down any transports coming into the hex. LRCAP did not actually seem to be able to shoot him down. I didn't think too much about it at the time as I only had the LRCAP flying for about 8 days before I captured Suva, then changed to CAP. This thread just reminded me of it.



ALF1 -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/11/2011 1:32:08 PM)

I can confirm this as well. LRCAP usualy did not shot down anything (I am not sure about Rufe - I did not try) but when you after park CV in hex where is transport you shot down lot of transport planes in my game. (and increasing amount of LRCAP planes present in target area of transport is not able to help) I write from side of Japs. Data show me that something is probably wrong in this topic.



GreyJoy -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/11/2011 1:41:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ALF1

I can confirm this as well. LRCAP usualy did not shot down anything (I am not sure about Rufe - I did not try) but when you after park CV in hex where is transport you shot down lot of transport planes in my game. (and increasing amount of LRCAP planes present in target area of transport is not able to help) I write from side of Japs. Data show me that something is probably wrong in this topic.



I find the opposite in my experience. LRCAP shoot down many many enemy transports. The thing is, imho, to set the right alt. If the enemy transports are arriving at 100 ft and your LRCAP is at 20k then it's possible that they do intercept but they do not shoot down



witpqs -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/11/2011 2:56:53 PM)

I've also seen LRCAP shoot down transports. It's not magic, then often get away.



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/11/2011 6:01:17 PM)

I've been running some test with this. It seems that transport intercetion is working, both japanese and allied fighters are able to shoot down transport planes, or patrol planes flying transport missions.

I have no idea why it seems that in my PBEM games only Rufes are shooting down transports. According my tests, altitude doesn't matter at all. Fighters flying at 25000 feet are able to kill transport flying at 100 feet, like fighters flying at 6000 feet are able to kill transports flying at 25000 feet. However, LRCAP distance might be a factor, I run my tests using short distances.

Maybe michaelm is right, and this oddity have something to do with group numbers? The Rufe group have much smaller number than my Zero or Oscar groups.

But I really hope that group numbers does not affect combat results...



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 6:30:41 AM)

OK, I think I figured it out now. It's the range that matters. It seems that transport interception is working only with very short LRCAP range compared to normal range of the aircraft. That's why only Rufes are able to shot down transport planes, they had the range of 3 hexes, while Oscars had range of 4, which obviously was too much. For example P-40 couldn't shot down anything if the LRCAP range was 2 hexes, but it worked with range of 1 hex.

I'm going to run more tests when I have time, but there might be a small issue after all...



castor troy -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 6:36:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

OK, I think I figured it out now. It's the range that matters. It seems that transport interception is working only with very short LRCAP range compared to normal range of the aircraft. That's why only Rufes are able to shot down transport planes, they had the range of 3 hexes, while Oscars had range of 4, which obviously was too much. For example P-40 couldn't shot down anything if the LRCAP range was 2 hexes, but it worked with range of 1 hex.

I'm going to run more tests when I have time, but there might be a small issue after all...




I have been shooting down enemy transports with all kind of fighters on LRCAP at ranges between 1 and surely up to 5 or 6 hexes. Of course I couldn´t check the other side´s air losses (all PBEM) but when there are a dozen enemy transports showing up as being shot down in my air loss list then I trust I have shot down at least halve of them.



LoBaron -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 6:47:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

OK, I think I figured it out now. It's the range that matters. It seems that transport interception is working only with very short LRCAP range compared to normal range of the aircraft. That's why only Rufes are able to shot down transport planes, they had the range of 3 hexes, while Oscars had range of 4, which obviously was too much. For example P-40 couldn't shot down anything if the LRCAP range was 2 hexes, but it worked with range of 1 hex.

I'm going to run more tests when I have time, but there might be a small issue after all...



Do you mean range settings of the fighter unit non LRCAP?
This should be irrelevant as long as you set a target for the LRCAP mission. [&:]



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 6:48:48 AM)

Yes, but what kind of plane you're using? Greater normal range, greater interception range.

According to my tests, the range is absolute. P-40s (normal range 5 in Guadalcanal scenario) couldn't shoot down anything if the LRCAP range was 2, 3 or 4 hexes, ever. But if the range was 1 hex, they shoot down numerous planes every turn. Same with other plane models: 4 hexes was too much for A6M3 Zero, but longer range A6M2 Zero shoot down planes nicely.



castor troy -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 6:50:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, but what kind of plane you're using? Greater normal range, greater interception range.

According to my tests, the range is absolute. P-40s (normal range 5 in Guadalcanal scenario) couldn't shoot down anything if the LRCAP range was 2, 3 or 4 hexes, ever. But if the range was 1 hex, they shoot down numerous planes every turn. Same with other plane models: 4 hexes was too much for A6M3 Zero, but longer range A6M2 Zero shoot down planes nicely.




all kind of Allied fighters, so most have only 5 hexes range anyway and I´m sure these were shooting down transports over targets further away than 1 or 2 hexes. But to be honest, I´ve never really looked at it closely because it always has been working fine for me. [&:]



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 6:54:52 AM)

Well of course I might be wrong. [:D] I'm only reporting what I've seen so far.

I'm going to run some more tests when I have time.



LoBaron -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 6:55:01 AM)

Btw: did you take armament into account.

Transports are not as hard to shoot down as bombers, but the are sometimes difficult to
destroy, and thats a classic Oscar weakness.
From what I see you are comparing Oscars with Rufes, with the Rufes being more successful.
As they have the same armament as Zeros (2 7.62mm and 2 20mm) I´d expect them to kill
multi engine AC much better than Oscars. Wouldn´t this be enough for an explanation?



LoBaron -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 7:00:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, but what kind of plane you're using? Greater normal range, greater interception range.

According to my tests, the range is absolute. P-40s (normal range 5 in Guadalcanal scenario) couldn't shoot down anything if the LRCAP range was 2, 3 or 4 hexes, ever. But if the range was 1 hex, they shoot down numerous planes every turn. Same with other plane models: 4 hexes was too much for A6M3 Zero, but longer range A6M2 Zero shoot down planes nicely.




all kind of Allied fighters, so most have only 5 hexes range anyway and I´m sure these were shooting down transports over targets further away than 1 or 2 hexes. But to be honest, I´ve never really looked at it closely because it always has been working fine for me. [&:]



I think this is a valid point though. I misunderstood what Puhis meant by range.

The shorter the a/c range, the shorter the loitering time over target, that means less fighters over target
at a time. So P38 should be more effective at LRCAP 4 hexes away than P40 for example.

This is definitely reflected in the game.



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 7:15:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Btw: did you take armament into account.

Transports are not as hard to shoot down as bombers, but the are sometimes difficult to
destroy, and thats a classic Oscar weakness.
From what I see you are comparing Oscars with Rufes, with the Rufes being more successful.
As they have the same armament as Zeros (2 7.62mm and 2 20mm) I´d expect them to kill
multi engine AC much better than Oscars. Wouldn´t this be enough for an explanation?


now there's two different things, my PBEM games and test runs (mostly with Guadalcanal scenario, but also some turns with grand campaing).

Yes, Oscars do have weaker armament, but Rufes and Zeros have similar guns. So far in my PBEM games only Rufes have killed transports, while Oscars and Zeros have not. At the moment Rufes have over 30 kills, other plane types none. I still think it's the range, Rufe LRCAP is flying 3 hexes, Oscars 4 and Zeros 5.

Accordind to my test, transports are easy to kill if the CAP range is right. Only 4-5 turns and succesful LRCAP have easily shot down 20-30 planes flying transport missions. Guadalcanal scenario doesn't have actual transport planes, but I have used Catalinas, Emilys and Betties. All seem to die as easily.

Also RAF Buffalos didn't have any troubles killing japanese transports when I run some grand campaing turns. I haven't test Oscars yet.



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/12/2011 3:27:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

The shorter the a/c range, the shorter the loitering time over target, that means less fighters over target at a time. So P38 should be more effective at LRCAP 4 hexes away than P40 for example.

This is definitely reflected in the game.



Maybe what I'm seeing is WAD, maybe not. But it seems that beoynd sertain (IMO rather short) range LRCAP have no effect at all vs. transport missions.

Here are some results of my test using Guadalcanal scenario:

First Kittyhawks (normal range 5), two squadron flying LPCAP, 80 CAP 20 rest. Japan have 7 Mavis, 2 Emily and 31 Betty flying supply transport mission:
LRCAP over Buna, distance from Port Moresby 2 hex.
Number of kills (6 turns): 0,0,0,0,0,0 (none)

LRCAP over hex 99:130, distance 1 hex
Number of kills (5 turns): 6,6,8,3,3 (=26)


Then P-39 (normal range 6) two squadrons. Same settings as previously
LRCAP over Salamaua (distance 3 hex)
Number of kills (5 turns): 0,0,0,0,0 (none)

LRCAP over Buna (2 hex)
Kills (5 turns): 4,5,2,2,2 (=15)

LRCAP over 99:130 (1 hex)
Kills (5 turns): 8,7,3,6,1 (=25)


-----
Like I previously said, A6M2 Zeros (normal range 9) could shot down tranports when distance was 4 hex (from Lae to Port Moresby). A6M3 Zero (normal range 7) could not.


I attached my "head to head" test save file (.txt -> .pws), if someone is interested. At the moment japanese planes are flying supply mission from Rabaul to Salamaua. Just set allied fighters to fly LRCAP and see what happens.



Alfred -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/13/2011 5:23:43 PM)

Your claim that the fighters are flying at normal range is misleading.

You are using drop tanks and flying at extended range.

Try running your tests at normal range, not extended range and without drop tanks.

Alfred



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (12/13/2011 6:57:47 PM)

None of the planes were using drop tanks, or flying extended range.

My mistake was that I quoted normal range wrong. They should be
Kittyhawk: 4
P-39: 5
A6M2: 7
A6M3: 6

My results are still valid. Kittyhawks cannot intercept beyond 1 hex, P-39 2 hex etc.



Puhis -> RE: Intercepting transports - oddities (1/3/2012 5:09:43 PM)

michaelm, if you have time could you check if this range oddity is WAD or not?



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