Area Weapons Question (Full Version)

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WoodMan -> Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 4:48:07 PM)

Hey guys,

Do area weapons still kill your own stuff? I never research them, ever, because I seem to remember everyone saying they are suicide weapons.

But I just found the ancient ruin with the super area weapon and as I play on automatic ship design its now fitted on all my large ships and all my defensive bases and spaceports. Whats going to happen if my planet gets attacked will the spaceport and 4 defense bases all fire off their area weapons and destroy each other?

[:-]

Something needs to be done if they weren't already fixed, because now it sort of feels like game over, because I play on auto ship design and discovered an area weapon [:(]



WoodMan -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 5:51:18 PM)

Anyone can explain how they work?  I've never used them.  Do you have to give an order or is there no way to prevent them firing? (I'm at war so I don't want to load my game until I know whats going to happen) [:D]



J HG T -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 5:56:39 PM)

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think they still damage your own ships. At least I saw AI empires defence platforms damaging their transports while I spied a war between two rival empires.

One possible solution could be to remove friendly fire for area weapons and rebalance the stats to avoid "vertix-spam". I'm personally leaning towards this.

Other idea I thought about is to make friendly fire damage reduction upgrade available for each of the area weapons.

Simply removing the friendly fire and not touching the stats would be the most simple way to fix this, but it would probably allow using of the forementioned vertix-spam tactic.



WoodMan -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 6:11:20 PM)

Adding a fire area weapon button to the UI would also be acceptable, as long as the AI could understand how to use it (not when friendly ships are in range).

Edit: Suggest this is moved to the tech forum, honestly this is the only time I've ever decided to quit playing since I bought DW, so its got to be worse than any issue I've encountered before [:D]

I don't want to load my save until I know I'm not going to destroy all my own fleets and defences at the first sign of an enemy vessel.



Cauldyth -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 7:09:17 PM)

Hmm, would be nice to be able to flag components as "Do Not Use" for the automated ship design. Sort of the component equivalent of the request for quarantining systems. [;)]



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 7:11:23 PM)

Are you sure they hit friendly ships? I do not think so.



Okim -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 7:33:12 PM)

They do. Watched for myself how defending colony with a spaceport and 3 defence platforms devastated the whole fleet of freighters while fending off my tiny raiding fleet. However AI seems to handle pretty well positioning of those defence bases as no one actually hit any other by thier area weapons. And who actually carries about some old-fashioned private crap which turned out to be in wrong place in wrong time? :)



WoodMan -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 7:40:53 PM)

quote:

And who actually carries about some old-fashioned private crap which turned out to be in wrong place in wrong time? :)


You could inadvertently start a war by killing freighters of another Empire.

Here is a before and after shot, this super area weapon is a game breaker for sure. You can not use it unless your ship or base is alone, it is so powerful. Its game over or switch to manual ship/base design, something I'm not interesting in doing.

Friendly fire needs to be turned off on these and perhaps a slower rate of fire to prevent exploitation, or something else needs to be done to prevent these suicide weapons, the AI would obviously kill itself given this weapon for a start.



[image]local://upfiles/35265/57CBCC373F4E4B4896CCE84502D621B0.jpg[/image]



Grisha -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 9:59:46 PM)

You could limit them to freighters and exploration vessels. These ships are the ones who usually get caught alone. Especially exploration.



WoodMan -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 10:16:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

You could limit them to freighters and exploration vessels. These ships are the ones who usually get caught alone. Especially exploration.


But you miss my point, I play with Ship Design on auto, as do all the AI Empires.



Gray Death -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/11/2011 10:57:00 PM)

I never let the ai design my ships, they are not very good in my opinion.

But the area weapons are really useless for common fighting and the ai should be tweaked to use it not on spaceports.

OT:

I traded the super area weapon to some of the ai empires, so far no problem. Meaning, no wars in the galaxy. [:D] 

But this game runs a bit too calm, all empires with good rep and only 1 single empire at war every few years. I thought the spreading of the devastation pulse would instigate wars, but no...
Settings are 10x10 galaxy and 700 stars, ai on hard and aggresivity on restless.

I give the devastation pulse a prototype run against the legendary pirate base, I´m quite curious about the result. The prototype is a size 500 capital ship with good amounts of megatron z4 shields and enhanced armor.



Fideach -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 12:31:30 AM)

Area weapons do damage friendly and neutral targets. Computer uses them on there defense bases a lot and helps me wipe out there own fleets when I attack them often enough lol.

I only research them for the EMP Area Blast weapon. Add enough EMP defense to all your ship designs, and you wont have to worry about disabling your own ships.



balto -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 2:03:56 AM)

Woodman, Hi.

I know you do not like designing ships/ports. Because you have found this wonderful gift, how about just this once you go into the Designer and remove the Area Weapons from the Defensive bases and break up all your Fleets and have all Military craft on independent status. If that Area Weapon is as powerful as you imply it is, those Defensive Bases may be expendable. Then maybe you could post on how that wonderful weapon did. I would love some feedback on what that thing can do. I wish I had that thing. I had the Death Ray once and I never re-found it.., damn I wish I could find that again after all I have learned since then!!!

With that said, I goofed around with Area Weapons a lot. At first, I put them on all my lone (non-Fleet) warships that were on Auto Patrol around my empire. Then I was like, "man, I am going to put these on Constructors and blow all the attackers up with private financing..," all that kind of stuff. Personally I found that Area Weapons are not worth the Research, the Size, the Energy, the collateral damage, etc.., It is ALWAYS better to invest in basically everything Except Area weapons.

But you said you found a special super-powerful Area Weapon. I wish I had that, that is something maybe you could play with and possibly cherish, maybe even redesign your whole approach.

Can you tell me how much power that takes, its size, and most of all, its attack rating, and range)?



Gray Death -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 4:07:22 AM)

Here the data to:

The Devastator Pulse

Size: 170
Damage: 1200
Range: 520
Energy used: 470
Speed: 125
Damage loss: 210 per 100
Fire Rate: 12 Sec.




Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 4:47:20 AM)

As a fellow user of AI Ship Designs, I approve this message. As it is, I just stay away from the Super Area weapon tech. Period. I don't want to design all my ships, and furthermore what if I'm attacking along a several-sector front with dozens of fleets? Some of them HAVE to be automated, and if they have AI-Design and too much AoE? Buh-bye offensive.

That said, I'm expecting improvements on this front in the upcoming series of patches.



Bison36 -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:03:32 AM)

I never even considered that my AI tech designer would utilize such an awesome weapon, which will no doubt be used at the most inopportune time by my AI fleet commanders. This is a good note to take: never develop area weapons unless designing my own ships.



Gray Death -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:08:10 AM)

A quick note for all'ya: You get the devastator pulse from ruins, so it may inevitably to get it, if you search those ruins...



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:19:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray Carlyle

A quick note for all'ya: You get the devastator pulse from ruins, so it may inevitably to get it, if you search those ruins...


The ruins with the super-tech tend to keep the same names (I won't spoil it). If you really DON'T want a certain tech, you can choose not to investigate those ruins.



Bison36 -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:27:44 AM)

Hmm...I seem to find fluffy at ruins and it scares me. However I always investigate because the temptation is too much to pass up.



Gray Death -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:31:19 AM)

As far as I know there are 3 superweapon techs to find. The super laser, the devastator pulse and the death ray.



AminMaalouf -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:45:01 AM)

I put Area Weapons in gas mining stations, explorers and construction ships only. They have unforunately the effect that Pirates start to use missiles to take them out on long range. Nevertheless, for taming the zoo, they are wonderful. That they damage your own stuff, is ok from my point of view.



Gray Death -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:48:24 AM)

My mining bases had with starting tech 800 shields, 3 maxon blaster and 2 extractors each. It annoys me to rebuild them every 3 weeks. ;)



Shark7 -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 4:11:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

quote:

And who actually carries about some old-fashioned private crap which turned out to be in wrong place in wrong time? :)


You could inadvertently start a war by killing freighters of another Empire.

Here is a before and after shot, this super area weapon is a game breaker for sure. You can not use it unless your ship or base is alone, it is so powerful. Its game over or switch to manual ship/base design, something I'm not interesting in doing.

Friendly fire needs to be turned off on these and perhaps a slower rate of fire to prevent exploitation, or something else needs to be done to prevent these suicide weapons, the AI would obviously kill itself given this weapon for a start.



[image]local://upfiles/35265/57CBCC373F4E4B4896CCE84502D621B0.jpg[/image]


On the other hand, that is the danger of using an area weapon. The friendly fire casualties are the price you pay for using such a powerful area weapon. My personal feelings are that it is balanced...it is a very powerful offensive weapon for a single ship, but you always run the risk of destroying friendlies or neutrals if you choose to use it. It's a lot like the world destroyer...lots of power, but a heavy price to pay if you use it indiscriminately.



Grisha -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 5:21:55 PM)

It might be an idea to have a box in options that negates AI use of area weapons in your ship designs.



Keston -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 6:35:30 PM)

A pirate hunter or kaltor-pack hunter could also well use this tech, as could isolated low traffic stations. There should be ways to handle its obvious negatives.

A technology that phase shifts (or polarity reverses, or somesuch) friendly ships equipped with it so they don't take damage from the specific area weapon? Add component = protects ships?

A "friendly fire?" setting for a ship or class - use or don't use with friendlies in range, or close range, etc.? A default setting, but toggleable. The AI could probably assess pro/con and flip the toggle as needed. Human players would have to go in and change it manually, thus evening things up.



WoodMan -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 7:34:00 PM)

quote:

On the other hand, that is the danger of using an area weapon. The friendly fire casualties are the price you pay for using such a powerful area weapon. My personal feelings are that it is balanced...it is a very powerful offensive weapon for a single ship, but you always run the risk of destroying friendlies or neutrals if you choose to use it. It's a lot like the world destroyer...lots of power, but a heavy price to pay if you use it indiscriminately.


But you can't choose when to use it, it fires automatically.  You also can't choose what ships its on if you play with Ship Design automated.  The AI can't choose when to use it either, it will unwittingly fix it to its spaceport and defense bases and have them blow each other up.

My personal preference would be for it to be a projectile that explodes on contact with an enemy ship, the Area Effect taking place when the projectile hits the enemy ship. If the projectile could have a minimum range of the AE itself that would ensure that the ship that fired it and other friendly ships are less likely to get hit by it.



balto -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 9:56:36 PM)

That would be called Space Artillery.

Gray, thank you for the Stats on the Devatator pulse. Man, the things I could do with that!! Super Laser.., I have never come across that. Does anyone have the stats on that? That sounds like that would be the mack-daddy of the Super Weapons.



Manzikert -> RE: Area Weapons Question (12/12/2011 10:36:19 PM)

Yeah area weapons are unusable and a detriment to the game as currently implemented.



tiagocc0 -> RE: Area Weapons Question (1/26/2012 12:29:32 PM)

If area weapons cause friendly fire, then a ship shooting a laser weapon should hit the ship that is between it and the target.
It's ridiculous to have a area weapon that hit friendly ships because:

1. You can't control when to shoot
2. You can't control the radius of the weapon
3. If ship design automation is on it will put area weapons on it
4. AI will use area weapons and blow itself up

Being the last reason the most important, I don't want to play a game where the AI kills itself
It's broken and should be removed from the game, or should remove friendly fire and make it less powerful
There's no other alternative



PDiFolco -> RE: Area Weapons Question (1/26/2012 7:26:11 PM)

Mmmm, in my books I never saw the AI put a superweapon on a design.... To the contrary it removes them when you auto-refit ships after a tech breakthrough.  



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