Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (Full Version)

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StarWolf -> Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/17/2011 6:15:51 PM)

I don't think that the "Subjugated Dominion" diplomatic option currently works very well. This option means that the subjugated empire lost the war badly and basically have been enslaved by the winning empire. They agree to pay a small amount (10%) and you can monitor their stuff. I just don't think it works very well in practice right now.

Twice in the game I'm playing, I beat the shrimp and they became my subjugated dominion. The first time, they waited all of 5 minues before they decared war on my again. I beat them down some more and they again became my subjugated dominion. Sure enough, I didn't even have time to fuel and repair my fleet before they decared war on me again. To me this is broken. An empire that's badly beaten, lost all their fleets, spaceports, bases, etc. should take a long time to recover from that and rebuild a viable war machine. Declaring war again and again with no essentially nothing to make war with makes no sense to me.

I argue that being crushed and agreeing to become a subjugated dominion of another empire should actually have some teeth and have more benefit to the victor. I would like to suggest the following changes to address this diplomatic phase of the game:

    1) Subjugated empires cannot declare war on the winning empire again for a period of 1 game year. That gives both empires time to rebuild and get rid of war weariness. It also gives time for the financial reparations paid to the victor to actually mean something.

    2) The victor should get half of the subjugated dominion's cash on hand at the time the treaty is signed. This provides a tangible 'prize' for the winner of the war and an actual hit to the loser's economy.

    3) The subjugated dominion should pay the victor 20% of their income instead of 10% for the period of the subjugation.

The above changes allows for two things. First, the victor gains time and funds to repair and rebuild. Second, it is not so easy for the subjugated dominion to rise up and declare war again like nothing ever happened. The extra drain on their economy makes it harder for them to recover.

I feel that the above suggestions would really improves this aspect of the game. Does anyone agree?



Nedrear -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/17/2011 6:23:14 PM)

I agree. Actually your points are more logical - especially the take in of current cash - than the current system.



martok -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/17/2011 7:42:23 PM)

Some excellent suggestions, StarWolf (especially about getting half the loser's cash on hand)!  I second them. 






feelotraveller -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/17/2011 8:33:55 PM)

Yes, I agree subjugated dominion should be stronger/mean more/have greater penalties. Your suggestions are all good ones. Not sure if we need them all or of the exact proportions involved but absolutely, something of this sort would be very good. [:)]



Mozo -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/17/2011 9:30:49 PM)

Agreed - I like your ideas.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 2:20:01 AM)

I agree. Not only should the penalties be harsher, but it should be harder to get. In my AAR, I've subjegated the Ugnari twice mostly due to Spies blowing up gas stations, and a couple of small invasions. They have more planets than I do, and for awhile they had more money. However, having a much larger fleet seems to keep the war-itch away, although they will constantly request release from subjegation.



Evil Steve -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 4:10:40 AM)

i think, in terms of gameplay, subjugated dominion should be regarded as a surrender (but with a likely % higher chance of revolt), and the assets of that empire be counted in your victory conditions?



El Vis -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 8:48:42 AM)

There is another Problem with subjugation.
The ai always accept peace when the player offers to become a subjugated dominion.
This is an exploit in my eyes because it makes the player undefeatable. You can stop every invasion and never loose a planet for the price of 10% of your income. Thats much cheaper than to build and maintain military forces.
A few minutes (or seconds) later the ai often declares war again and again. But with this exploit you can get unlimited time to organize your defence or build up your empire.

I propose that the ai, after declaring war, should never accept a peace offer for perhaps one or two Years. This way the player mostly cannot avoid the first strike if he is not prepared to defend himself.

After a peace treaty it should be not allowed to break the peace for 5 Years.

Similiar rules work very nicely in paradoxgames.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 8:50:21 AM)

They most certainly do not accept it every time. The AI only does it when they see absolutely no chance for victory. It's actually a very smart thing to do for the AI, since they most certainly do live to fight another day, and they most certainly will break off and try to fight you later if you let them.



El Vis -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 9:07:35 AM)

quote:

The AI only does it when they see absolutely no chance for victory. It's actually a very smart thing to do for the AI, since they most certainly do live to fight another day, and they most certainly will break off and try to fight you later if you let them.


Perhaps I have been misunderstood.
In the early stages of a game I am very weak. Mostly much weaker than my neighbours (depends on setting). But thats no problem. Every time my aggressive neighbour declares war on me, I agree to become his subjugated dominion. The ai always accepts this offer. Even when the player has not a single military ship.
Thats an exploit because its much cheaper for me than to build up and maintain a starfleet in the early game.
This way I only pay 10% of my income for every of my aggressive neighbours (mostly only one or two) to be perfectly safe.
This way you never loose a single planet.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 9:58:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: El Vis

quote:

The AI only does it when they see absolutely no chance for victory. It's actually a very smart thing to do for the AI, since they most certainly do live to fight another day, and they most certainly will break off and try to fight you later if you let them.


Perhaps I have been misunderstood.
In the early stages of a game I am very weak. Mostly much weaker than my neighbours (depends on setting). But thats no problem. Every time my aggressive neighbour declares war on me, I agree to become his subjugated dominion. The ai always accepts this offer. Even when the player has not a single military ship.
Thats an exploit because its much cheaper for me than to build up and maintain a starfleet in the early game.
This way I only pay 10% of my income for every of my aggressive neighbours (mostly only one or two) to be perfectly safe.
This way you never loose a single planet.


Oh, yes. My bad. I thought you were offering it to them. I can't say I've ever actually been a subjegated dominion, but now that I think about it that might not be a bad idea in a pinch. I do agree the AI should only accept if it looks like they can't get further colonial gains from conquering though.



geosch -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 1:16:52 PM)

I agree with the suggestion, subjugated dominion now is almost meaningless, if not an exploit as discussed above.

I would even propose an additional further step - Total Surrender. Available say when the military might calculation is 10:1 or greater in one side's favor.

I usually am at war over disputed/desired planets. But SD does not solve that problem, and I personally find it rather tedious/difficult to repeatedly raise and transport enough troops to invade numerous planets. I find it easier, although ethically taxing, to bombard and recolonize. ((Which raises another question, why is it so easy to transport 30M colonists and all their belongings and equipment, while it is soooo difficult to round up an invasion force of 50K troops?? [:)]))

When the "Resistance is Futile" stage is reached, Total Surrender should be an option.



Keston -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 2:22:19 PM)

Subjugated with tribute and inspection rights as it stands is a very reasonable resolution to a losing war short of occupation. A lump-sum payment up front wouldn't hurt, but on the player side is easily evaded by spending cash on hand.

Rather than messing with it, add a more severe option short of conquest.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 2:29:32 PM)

I think while we're on this subject, a more commited attitude from the AI in general would be nice. Basic guidelines like "We'll need a fleet at least <this big> to meet our objectives." and then actually doing it properly. Instead, it feels like the AI kind of blunders its way through war and constantly tries to adjust for your actions in ways that it probably shouldn't.

Most players win strategy games by picking on the AI, from start to finish. A predatorial attitude is usually all it takes. Very rarely do you see that kind of AI in a game, but when you do its' a refreshing change of pace. You only get it in Distant Worlds if you have managed to find yourself on the complete wrong end of a blowout, or against the Shakturi.



w1p -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/18/2011 6:22:38 PM)

great idea's, i'd say have the dominated empire unable to declare war/rebel for atleast 3-5 years, one in-game year is not a huge amount of time.



jpwrunyan -> RE: Subjugated Dominion suggestion/discussion (12/19/2011 4:47:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

Subjugated with tribute and inspection rights as it stands is a very reasonable resolution to a losing war short of occupation. A lump-sum payment up front wouldn't hurt, but on the player side is easily evaded by spending cash on hand.

Rather than messing with it, add a more severe option short of conquest.


I agree with this completely which is why I am quoting it.
I have had no probs with subjugation as is. But it feels more like they are a vassal state.
Suggest a tougher option if you like, but no empire would reasonably accept it unless faced with annihilation. I think so far the ai is acting within reason. More fool you if you think the Boskara are serious when they offer to be your slaves/vassals. And I doubt anyone would agree to anything that would make them irrevocably irrelevant.



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