RE: German child soldiers (Full Version)

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Mehring -> RE: German child soldiers (12/27/2011 8:08:30 PM)

There's a lot of often spurious 'facts' demagogicly presented as proof of something to which they may in reality have no, little, or an opposite relation to that intended to be demonstrated. I don't think this advances anybody's understanding of the game or of history.

If we want to find out how the game can simulate historical reality why not set up some games between a handful of each side's heavyweights, and see who comes out tops, how soon and how much it costs them?



BletchleyGeek -> RE: German child soldiers (12/27/2011 8:59:28 PM)

Collecting accurate losses figures to compare against, say, Krivosheen, are at best a very difficult proposition and require to spend some time collecting data... and the "right" data at that.

I disregard completely the losses numbers... right now I'm counting "ground elements" split into destroyed and damaged. The figures are highly misleading since they amalgamete permanent and "temporary" losses. And these "temporary" losses are buffered and produce a trickle of "permanent" casualties when damaged elements become destroyed during the corresponding Logistics phase.

This explained the 90-10 "law" I was seeing for KIA vs Disabled in my game against Q-Ball. I eventually figured out that those immediate figures where correlated with the number of destroyed ground elements (immediate permanent losses). Germans seem to have a 70-30 law, basically because their ground elements are prone to be damaged rather than destroyed. This I think is in part because the role experience checks play in many combat-related mechanics (such as retreats) and the varying degrees of TOE% for Support squads.

There are a LOT of things which need to be revised in WitE Tactical Combat system... but drawing people to that conclusion by comparing the wrong numbers against the quite unreliable ones presented by Pelton is "forum demagogy". People should try to understand game mechanics first, then to try to figure out where exactly they're - or are not - derailing WitE w.r.t. history, and last, make their case without screaming at all.

Klydon has a very good point though... but I've come to realize that WitE engine really gives a lot of tools to the attacking side, while the defender has to make do with placement and reserve mechanics... to delay the attacker the enough so a credible counterattacking force can be assembled. Strategy discussions analogous to those done on Axis topics won't go very far... since the phasing player - if in the attack - has everything within reach to make a fool proof attack plan. The non-phasing players has very limited say on matters. And in the defence and being the phasing player, what I just said before, if you f*ck up with placement or don't use reserves at all, you can well press F12 and expect that your opponent has mercy.

In other words: the defender gameplay is very shallow, in my opinion, especially when compared with many other operational-level wargames.



randallw -> RE: German child soldiers (12/27/2011 9:04:45 PM)

Part of the reason why there is debating on Axis strategy and less on Soviet is the 1941 campaign begins with the Axis having the initiative; much of the Soviet strategy for 1941 is reacting, running around plugging fingers into dykes.
Axis strategy has many knowns to begin with: where to head to, what units are available, and some idea of the Soviet OOB, that sort of thing.  By the time the Soviet side has a monster ready to attack, who knows what specific month it is, the regions where the fighting is going on, and where the Germans are.



mmarquo -> RE: German child soldiers (12/28/2011 12:28:21 AM)

"No game between players has been run to public conclusion for either side as far as I know simply because the outcome is already known to both parties and one side or the other doesn't care to waste the amount of time to confirm their feeling. To run one of these games to conclusion would require a ton of time investment; something players seem to be more willing to invest in a new game."

How can the unknown be known before it is known? [:)] Just because a player has a "feeling" or "knows" does not mean that it is certain until at least a few have played to the end.

Marquo



56ajax -> RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. (12/28/2011 6:23:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

German population 80 million Russian population 180 million or 2.4 to 1


I think it is misleading to just compare population numbers as the Russians used many women as combat troops. It is also important to check the numbers aged from 16 to 50 in the population; I believe the Russians had the equivalent of a baby boom in the 20's which caused a spike in the numbers of military age just when they needed them.

quote:

The only thing that saved Russia was Overlord.

Wow. Can't agree with that. Your bound to loose with an incompetent high command.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. (12/28/2011 7:13:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

All of this goes back to the old question that may never be answered to everyone's agreement: are results supposed to be close to historical, even if the players don't play the game like the real leaders did?


The results need to be feasible and credible, based on the historical realities and the decisions taken by the players. A reasonably well read and intelligent person should be able to look at the outcome, even with major deviations from the historical track, and say, "Yes, that could have happened if those changes were made or those conditions were met."



randallw -> RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. (12/28/2011 9:09:05 PM)

I wonder how far that can be taken.  One book I have on the war gives the opinion that if Soviets done a better job in the fall of 1941 that would have been the death of major German offensives for the rest of the war.  Who's going to want to play the Axis side with a lacking fun-factor like that?



DrewMatrix -> RE: German child soldiers (12/29/2011 12:01:16 AM)

quote:

Collecting accurate losses figures to compare against, say, Krivosheen, are at best a very difficult proposition and require to spend some time collecting data


I happened to be at a History Dept Alumni dinner last year where the speaker was a faculty member whose area of research is losses (civilian and military) of the Soviet Union in WWII and the effect this had on the Soviet economy and social norms (they had so few men after the war).

This is her life's work. She's a PhD in history, about 50 years old and spends a lot of time now and particularly just post Glasnost rooting in the Soviet archives over there. That's "some time collecting data" to put it mildly.

I asked her a pretty specific question about military losses in one situation and she said "The answer isn't known, almost certainly will never be known and probably wasn't known even at the time."


The father of a friend of mine had been in the Soviet Army as an officer. He was a Jew but the Sov's were desperate for officers and used him. Pulled him out of a camp and made him an officer. He was less than enthusiastic in his fervor for Stalin and Mother Russia, though, to say the least.

He pulled his entire unit (men, trucks etc) out during a battle and they "vanished into the steppes" (and eventually got to their families and then to the west).

The situation he describes (this desertion was in late '44) was unbelievably chaotic. Do you think these guys counted as casualties? Or as "we are too busy to do a roll call just now and who knows how many people who we can't find at the moment went"? They just disappeared as far as the Soviet command ever knew.

I'm amazed there are any sort of stats.

Drew S.



T-28A -> RE: German child soldiers (12/29/2011 4:22:07 AM)

quote:

I'm amazed there are any sort of stats.

Working with German and Soviet archival stuff for nearly 10 years now, I can assure you that Soviet combat statistics (when preserved in archives) is often a paradigm of level of details and precision, comparing to German one [;)]
BTW, there is online database of Russian ministry of defense, covering some 30 millions of records for about 8-9 millions of Soviet KIA, MIA, prisoners of war etc from various sources (one man could be listed 2-5 times there, because he could be mentioned in several documents). There are some gaps for sure, but the vast majority of enlisted men and women is covered there, often with the description of where and how he/she was killed or died - at least I found all my KIA kinsmen there. Out of curiosity, if you tell me your friend's father's name and birth year, and if he has really deserted before the end of war, then there's good chance we could find out something about him there.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: German child soldiers (12/29/2011 9:21:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

quote:

Collecting accurate losses figures to compare against, say, Krivosheen, are at best a very difficult proposition and require to spend some time collecting data


I happened to be at a History Dept Alumni dinner last year where the speaker was a faculty member whose area of research is losses (civilian and military) of the Soviet Union in WWII and the effect this had on the Soviet economy and social norms (they had so few men after the war).


Soviet Union victory was very expensive, much more than people in the West realize.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle
This is her life's work. She's a PhD in history, about 50 years old and spends a lot of time now and particularly just post Glasnost rooting in the Soviet archives over there. That's "some time collecting data" to put it mildly.


What your friend is doing is REAL data collection :) I was speaking about comparing WitE losses "data" with well-known sources, such as Krivosheen :-) Very interesting work, do you happen to have a pointer to it?



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