RE: New Beta fix #338 (Full Version)

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WITPPL -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 2:18:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I don't know of any such bug, or it being fixed in the Beta. Perhaps I missed it.

You mentioned Vals getting 3.7% hit rate and SBDs getting 35% hit rate - I think people explained the Val issue pretty well. SBDs do hit well sometimes, but if you think it's a problem that they did then you could post all the relevant details, like pilot skills, etc.


Check out my report here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3006014&mpage=1&key=�




guytipton41 -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 4:53:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

If things go poorly, it's the game's fault.

Where is the combat report data of this "even up CV fight"?, unless you're talking about the one in the "This is just wack..." thread. Most problems users experience can be traced to the misunderstanding and misapplication of resources in the game, as in the example shown in the "wack" thread, setting your DBs to a level bombing altitude.

Surely you must have figured that out by now - the "wack" thread is nearly a week old. Why are you posting about this issue again?


Hi Folks,

After I posted the 'wack' thread - millersan and I reran the combat six more times with various parameters changed - especially the Val altitude. We changed the number of TF, the range, %CAP (USN 20% CAP in one case) and CAP altitude. With the released version of the software the results were lopsided to very lopsided in every case. Six trials do not a statistical basis make, but they are a good leading indicator. We didn't keep good records of the trials, but with respect to IJN and USN pilots these are the game start pilots. (Which I assume are elite for the IJN).

Then we downloaded the Dec '12 beta and ran it again a few more times and the results are still pro-USN but much more balanced. It appears that letting the defense spending a hour setting up makes a significant difference.

Cheers,
Guy

Ps. The rough and tumble of internet posting maybe second nature to netziens, but some folks making a post to this forum might be making their 1st post ever. We don't want to scare off potential victims... I mean opponents.




witpqs -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 5:39:57 AM)

Guys, I know you are seeing the results you are seeing, but others just aren't. Players have many, many results under the official releases (meaning non-Beta) that are not in any way consistently lopsided. Quite often the IJN absolutely kicks butt. The notions that the latest official release out there (which is 1106i IIRC) is somehow warped toward the Allies and that the Beta changes that - those notions are just not true.

What are the reasons that you are seeing what you are seeing? I don't know. But a huge weight of examples/experiences from other players contradicts the conclusions that (if I understand correctly) you are reaching.




castor troy -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 7:56:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: guytipton41


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

If things go poorly, it's the game's fault.

Where is the combat report data of this "even up CV fight"?, unless you're talking about the one in the "This is just wack..." thread. Most problems users experience can be traced to the misunderstanding and misapplication of resources in the game, as in the example shown in the "wack" thread, setting your DBs to a level bombing altitude.

Surely you must have figured that out by now - the "wack" thread is nearly a week old. Why are you posting about this issue again?


Hi Folks,

After I posted the 'wack' thread - millersan and I reran the combat six more times with various parameters changed - especially the Val altitude. We changed the number of TF, the range, %CAP (USN 20% CAP in one case) and CAP altitude. With the released version of the software the results were lopsided to very lopsided in every case. Six trials do not a statistical basis make, but they are a good leading indicator. We didn't keep good records of the trials, but with respect to IJN and USN pilots these are the game start pilots. (Which I assume are elite for the IJN).

Then we downloaded the Dec '12 beta and ran it again a few more times and the results are still pro-USN but much more balanced. It appears that letting the defense spending a hour setting up makes a significant difference.

Cheers,
Guy

Ps. The rough and tumble of internet posting maybe second nature to netziens, but some folks making a post to this forum might be making their 1st post ever. We don't want to scare off potential victims... I mean opponents.




If you two guys see the initial IJN super hero pilots achieving always only a 3.5% hit rate in their Vals AND you set them to an altitude that makes them dive bombing then you are not playing WITP AE. Not speaking of a different patch version, speaking of a different game.

No test on Earth will ever show the same results you seem to be quoting. Thousands of combat reports on the forum and 3.5% hit rate is just not what they show. 35% perhaps, 3.5% no.




Puhis -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 7:57:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: guytipton41

After I posted the 'wack' thread - millersan and I reran the combat six more times with various parameters changed - especially the Val altitude. We changed the number of TF, the range, %CAP (USN 20% CAP in one case) and CAP altitude. With the released version of the software the results were lopsided to very lopsided in every case. Six trials do not a statistical basis make, but they are a good leading indicator. We didn't keep good records of the trials, but with respect to IJN and USN pilots these are the game start pilots. (Which I assume are elite for the IJN).

Then we downloaded the Dec '12 beta and ran it again a few more times and the results are still pro-USN but much more balanced. It appears that letting the defense spending a hour setting up makes a significant difference.



I think you are partly right, that radar bug gives US CAP too much time to react. I've seen that too. I think it can be an issue, espesially early game when Japan don't have radar. Beta patch have fixed that now.

However, in your example the main problem of IJN is lack of fighters. Early in 1942, 4 KB carriers have just 70 fighters, which is not enough for both CAP and escort.

Look at my example (post # 18), I was using same patch as you. USN had the same 160 NM, 60 minutes warning time, but the battle went really well for IJN. You have to have enough escort fighters to protect bombers.




FatR -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 11:52:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

That does not mean much without knowing parameters. You can see from multitude of AARs that A2A works reasonably well in 80-90% of cases.

There are several ways to "screw up" and 60% of those can be traced to "problem between chair & keyboard, 40% for bad dice rolls". For example, having Vals to fly over 15k is classic way..since then they level bomb and rarely hit anything.

Over 14k now, if this hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet. At some point of the beta divebombing altitude was changed.




Sardaukar -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 2:51:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

That does not mean much without knowing parameters. You can see from multitude of AARs that A2A works reasonably well in 80-90% of cases.

There are several ways to "screw up" and 60% of those can be traced to "problem between chair & keyboard, 40% for bad dice rolls". For example, having Vals to fly over 15k is classic way..since then they level bomb and rarely hit anything.

Over 14k now, if this hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet. At some point of the beta divebombing altitude was changed.


Raid massively overnumbering CAP is another biggie. I am not saying there may not be problems, just that CAP just cannot deal massive raids overnumbering CAP.




crsutton -> RE: New Beta fix #338 (1/10/2012 9:42:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

10,000 - 14,000 feet.


Which is rediculous, as the US Dive Bombers at Midway (perhaps the most successful dive bombing attach of the war) attacked from 17,000 feet. [8|]



Of course, most of us are well aware of this. But there is no switch that allows either the computer commander or the human player to make objective decisions about when and whether to use a certain bombing tactic at all altitudes. So by using an altitude bands the designers effectively created that switch for us. It is just the limitations of a the game. We all know that in the Pacific a flight of fighters could have flown to the target at 20,000 feet and then dropped down to 100 feet to strafe. But was not possible to program that into the game along with the other duties fighters perform at 20k. You just have to live with it. It is not such a big deal.






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