Leningrad defense, what am I missing (Full Version)

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vlcz -> Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/10/2012 12:58:21 PM)


Background information:

1.5 germans isolate leningrad and go over the Volvhok, NOT taking Svir but cutting the line about one turn . Blizzard restores Vholvok line and rebuilds rail line as soon as first week of january 42.

The problem.

Divisions in Leningrad does NOT take reemplacements . Even when in refit and not in first line. As I can not ship reinforcements via ladoga (frozen even in april MUD turns) division are slowly taken apart by attrition. ...result by end of april it is clear that it will be taken in first may by any german soldier who go to piss in the almost empty ramparts.

Measures taken.

I routinelly flew air supply to army HQ in the city (almost total air sup), the supply situation was indeed not bad (no yellow outline) from february on. Merged some brigades from interior lines with the defenders and created new division and brigades. All to no avail.

What am I missing? Is there anything more than can be done? I have come to the “conclusion” that leningrad cannot be retained in 42 isolated, period.



Q-Ball -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/10/2012 2:52:38 PM)

Any units not connected by rail struggle to gain replacements, even if in supply. The same thing will happen to Soviet units in the Crimea if the rail line is cut there, though you can rotate units there, not in Leningrad.

I don't think there is anything you can do.

Glad you posted that, though, that information is good to know; that Leningrad will slowly attrite out if surrounded



Farfarer61 -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/10/2012 3:47:28 PM)

You will find this problem. even in "good" times. Soviet units that are on the front line, but 5 to 6 hexes from a rail line, or 5 hexes from their HQ, will suffer attrition and no replacements. They need rotating. I think this is doubly worse in Blizzards, as the "Trucks required" number seems to double, meaning your supply system immediately became half as effective.



governato -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/10/2012 6:48:15 PM)

I definitely see attrition creeping up for Soviet units in static mode around Leningrad in GC43. Rotating the front line units seems to be a good way to deal with this, and I get a second line of fortified hexes in the process.



vlcz -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/11/2012 8:48:22 AM)

Revisiting the options at hand perhaps I could have amassed some more inf divisions (4 or 5 in exchange for airbases, air HQ and some naval brigades ) during October 41 mud via ladoga shipping , keeping them out of frontline to fight in the critical 1st may 42 turn , as the ladoga shipping opens again this same turn allowing new reinforcements. Anyway, this do not solve than a pair snow assaults in March could well have done the job.



DesertedFox -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/11/2012 8:57:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Any units not connected by rail struggle to gain replacements, even if in supply. The same thing will happen to Soviet units in the Crimea if the rail line is cut there, though you can rotate units there, not in Leningrad.

I don't think there is anything you can do.

Glad you posted that, though, that information is good to know; that Leningrad will slowly attrite out if surrounded


Okay so where are the "manpower" replacements that Leningrad produce going? Are they shipping them out to Moscow for training?

I understand what you are saying Q Ball, its the game mechanics but there is definitely a case here for Leningrad to be able have its units receive infantry replacements only as if they were connected to a rail line.

I have read enough AARs to know just how damn difficult it is for the Russian player to hold onto Leningrad. Now if they do do so, the German player can console himself with "ah, leave it be until summer 42, then the units will be so weak we can easily take it with a frontal assault'.



DesertedFox -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/13/2012 5:21:54 PM)

Bump!

No further discussion on this?

If this is the case then risking units to defend Leningrad in 41 is plain suicide, because if you don't loose them in 41 you will in 42.



Flaviusx -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/13/2012 5:55:21 PM)

You need to ship fresh units in and depleted ones out, that's pretty much the only way to sustain forces in Leningrad once it is cut off. It's very annoying and shipping capacity will not keep up with needs easily. Also, use air supply.

Given the present state of the game, this issue is largely theoretical: most of the time Leningrad will fall in 41 to a determined Axis assault. If the German wants the place and knows what he is doing, he'll get it, period.

Leningrad aside, frontline units have problems getting replacements in 42 in general, and particularly up north, and will decline in strength unless they are rotated out of the front and into the rear. It's wildly irritating. Even setting them on static won't help. (Never ever use static mode as the Soviet. It's completely worthless and indeed actively harmful.)



DesertedFox -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/13/2012 8:19:31 PM)

Appreciate your response Flaviusx.

I understand there are more pressing items to be fixed, but given if Leningrad is held your reward for such heroics is completely taken away in 42. Shipping fresh units in and out in 42 means more units not fortifying against the German assault, and as usual, the Russians need every unit counter they can get.



vlcz -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/16/2012 10:06:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
You need to ship fresh units in and depleted ones out, that's pretty much the only way to sustain forces in Leningrad once it is cut off. It's very annoying and shipping capacity will not keep up with needs easily. Also, use air supply.


VERY annoying indeed, in the reference game the neva line resisted into May (not the leningrad south hex) sufficient to begin ferrying units. But to my dismay the capacity is low to pathetic, in the first turn I was able to ship to divisions , but somehow afterwards I only where capable of moving single brigades... with no air attacks on both ports

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Given the present state of the game, this issue is largely theoretical: most of the time Leningrad will fall in 41 to a determined Axis assault. If the German wants the place and knows what he is doing, he'll get it, period.


Agree , leningrad can only be sustained if german bids for a big pocket aiming at Svir, and fails.




Michael T -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/16/2012 10:49:24 AM)

quote:

It's wildly irritating

I have to agree.



delatbabel -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/17/2012 10:22:23 AM)

In the current 1.05 game version it is impossible to hold Leningrad in 1942, even against the AI.  You can forget trying to hold it against a human opponent.  It will attrition slowly to death and even if it doesn't do that then in March 1942 the landsers will take apart your level 4 forts like they aren't even there. Get your industry out and give the city up as lost, there is nothing you can do.

It's a pity because it's a huge boost to the Germans to get the Finns running around the map.

Against an even moderately capable Human opponent you will be unable to hold Moscow either.




Hermann -> RE: Leningrad defense, what am I missing (1/18/2012 9:14:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You need to ship fresh units in and depleted ones out, that's pretty much the only way to sustain forces in Leningrad once it is cut off. It's very annoying and shipping capacity will not keep up with needs easily. Also, use air supply.

Given the present state of the game, this issue is largely theoretical: most of the time Leningrad will fall in 41 to a determined Axis assault. If the German wants the place and knows what he is doing, he'll get it, period.

Leningrad aside, frontline units have problems getting replacements in 42 in general, and particularly up north, and will decline in strength unless they are rotated out of the front and into the rear. It's wildly irritating. Even setting them on static won't help. (Never ever use static mode as the Soviet. It's completely worthless and indeed actively harmful.)




just ship in brigades and merge them into the combat units. placing the army on ready /reserve and just the leningrad forces on refit for a turn every now and then helps and having an airbase in the city for resupply gets the stuff out more evenly. make sure your officer has high admin skills



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