Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (Full Version)

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GreyJoy -> Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 1:49:43 PM)

...not that better

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16558910


[:o][:-][:-]



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 2:02:37 PM)

Seems Italian drivers are no better with boats than they are with cars... [:D]



dorjun driver -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 2:38:04 PM)

If it weren't for the loss of life, that is the funniest thing (AMB!) I've seen this morning. [sm=character0085.gif]



pompack -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 3:00:33 PM)

Two interesting points

1) the gash is not that big in terms of fraction of waterline-length.

2) it sank due to loss of stability when it listed to the opposite side of the damage



Gunner98 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 4:08:33 PM)

Those things are built like Container ships for people - straigt up - obviously on a very fine ballance point.



crsutton -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 4:58:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Those things are built like Container ships for people - straigt up - obviously on a very fine ballance point.



Yep, they hole was significant and the water came in fast. With any ship if it is coming in faster than you can counterflood then you will have a problem. I don't really know how stable these pleasure palaces things are but would assume that the design is not flawed.



viberpol -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 5:08:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
...not that better

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16558910

[:o][:-][:-]


Well, it seems she's been sinking quite long close to the shore and with all lights on...
But imagine what would have happened if she was at sea and the weather was bit worse...

[image]local://upfiles/18529/FEE84CC735C743299104BB05052F41F7.jpg[/image]



n01487477 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 5:43:13 PM)

Sorry for the deceased but that is going to take a bit of pumping out

[image]local://upfiles/19798/18698AF40D9A4960AAF2251CE9F4613D.jpg[/image]



GreyJoy -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/14/2012 6:04:59 PM)

It seems that they hit a rock at 500mt from the coast and then the cpt when he understood the ships was going to sink has brought her to swallower waters...they went off the route because the cpt wanted to make the passengera see the little village on the isle they were passing by....[:-]




21pzr -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 12:12:09 PM)

While the article GJ attached is the first I've actually read about the incident, I am a 36 year merchant ship Chief Engineer, and former cruise ship Chief.

A few observations:

1. Gunner98: while container ships look to be very high and unstable, the amount of weight below decks actually makes them very stable. A cruise ship on the other hand is rather "tender" (rolls quite easily), which is why they are usually equipped with fin stabilizers (one of which is seen in the photo showing the damaged hull, projecting up aft of the damaged area).

2. Cruise ships carry very little ballast water, and have few ballast tanks, so listing due to flooding of empty tanks, and counterflooding is not really significant. We routinely were asked by the bridge to transfer potable (drinking water) from side to side of the ship as the most effective means of list correction. A cruise ship of this size would carry 3000+ tons of drinking water.

3. I don't see much evidence of an oil slick, so it doesn't appear to have holed a fuel tank.

4. Most cruise ships are rated as "2 compartment" ships, meaning that any two adjacent watertight compartments can be flooded without loss of the vessel. A ship this size would normally be divided into 15 or so watertight compartments along the length of the ship. These compartments are provided with hydraulically operated sliding doors at each deck up to the "waterline" deck (usually decks 0-3). These doors are in all engineering spaces as well as crew quarters, and when closed (supposed to be at all times while at sea), they cause lots of wandering up and down ladders to get from one area to the other. I would suspect that the gash visible in the photo breached 3 compartments. Why she rolled to the opposite side? Perhaps the automated anti-heel ballast pumps reacted to the initial list, and then the free surface of the water in the engineering spaces carried her over.

5. Most cruise ships have redundant engine rooms, where every system is separated from the other engine room. That would explain the lights staying on, while the forward engine spaces flooded.

6. Cruise ships are required to have 100% capacity of lifeboats/liferafts ON EACH SIDE of the ship, so that when you cannot lower boats on one side due to list, everyone can go to the other side (which will not help the list, either!). Usually, only the paying customers have seats in the boats, the crew uses rafts.

7. The ship sailing without having a passenger emergency drill, scheduled for later that evening, is pretty common in some companies. The law states that the drill must be accomplished within 4 hours of sailing. US flag cruise ships have their drills prior to sailing. The lack of organization and inability to properly deploy lifesaving equipment is fairly common among foreign flag (non-US) crews. Extensive training ashore as well as onboard, and quarterly USCG witnessed drills are some of the reasons that US flag operation of ships is more expensive than foreign flag ships.

8. Every major cruise ship sailing from US ports (Miami, Port Everglades, New York, etc) is foreign flagged with a foreign crew. This could easily happen here. There is only ONE US flagged large cruise ship in the world, NCL's Pride of America, working the Hawaiian Islands.

Just my two cents, and a rant for people to think about when deciding that US flagged shipping is not required.

Bill



21pzr -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 2:05:08 PM)

I just decided that I couldn't let Dorjun Driver's comments go. Only someone who has never been to sea could call any maritime disaster "the funniest thing I've seen". Stating that "If it weren't for the loss of life" is like asking, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the show?".

What people don't realize is that a ship at sea (even one that close to shore) is its own universe. Shoreside emergency responders are rarely equipped or trained to assist a ship's crew in an emergency. While on the cruise ships in Hawaii, we regularly had tours by the Honolulu Fire Department. They were routinely amazed at the capacity of our firefighting, lifesaving, and emergency equipment. For instance, if the ship is alongside a berth, and on fire, the only real aid the fire department could give would be boundary cooling using their trucks on the side of the ship, as each of the ships 4 fire pumps were equal to several of their pumpers, and they would not have been able to add anything to our firemain system, as long as our pumps were running. Also, due to the unique nature of ship construction and layout, they would have had to just supplement our fire teams with their personnel, as they would have most likely become lost, or not known the nomenclature of spaces aboard ship. Even major city fire departments are not familiar with shipboard emergencies, witness the "Normandie" disaster in NYC, and others where ships have sunk at the dock since that time.

As a Staff Chief Engineer aboard a cruise vessel, I was responsible for handling all onboard emergencies as the "on scene commander". While the ship did have an officer billet of "Firefighter", who was normally a trained shoreside firefighter or smoke jumper, we routinely had differences of opinion on how to handle fire teams. A shoreside firefighter is trained to stop what they are doing to save the life of a victim they have found, since the building in flames can be evacuated, and left to burn if necessary. Onboard ship, you cannot evacuate the building (choose to get 3000 people into little lifeboats?), so triage states that the fire teams fight the emergency that threatens the 3000 (the fire) and let the one casualty wait until further help can arrive.

A final note, the practice of varying from standard courses to give the guests a show is quite common in the cruise industry. Cruise lines are under great pressure to give the guests a great experience, and the ships are run by the "Hotel Department" and its requirements. Cruise ship Captains are much more like hotel executives than ship captains, and one of their main concerns on a daily basis is the revenue stream, not necessarily what makes the most sense nautically. Generally, due to the nearly daily port calls, cruise ships do not take local pilots, the Captain and Staff Captain normally have pilotage for all scheduled ports of call.

I just have to add one old curmudgeon statement, that DD's comments show the loss of humanity due to the "social media", when people can make cracks about disasters from far away and in comfort.

Not trying to start a flame war (I hate that stuff on these forums), but while I recognize the humorous slant of GJ's original post title, there is nothing funny about this disaster.

Bill



GreyJoy -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 2:26:15 PM)

i regularly sail during summer with my motor boat (11 mt) and have some experience on sailboats also (use to take a 1 week sailboat cruise every summer), so i think i understand what you mean 21pzr. people who are not used to the sea environement don't understand how risky and "on the edge" can be a boat among the waves...even with th tecnology every boat/ship has nowdays.

However here it's clear that the captain undervalued the situation...clearly he didn't look at the GPS (those rocks are signaled, i can tell you) and did what every sailor would avoid: putting your ship at risk without any good reason.
Worse, that captain abbandoned the ship while 3000 people were still aboard (they found him while he was trying to swim away!!!) and the whole crew was not trained to this kind of emergencies! Just think about that 90% of the crew didn't speak a word of italian or english...most of them were east european waiters...very few real sailors among them! Some witnesses even said that some of the crews didn't even know how to swim![:-]



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 3:26:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Seems Italian drivers are no better with boats than they are with cars... [:D]



I'm sorry if this looked disrespectfull of those lost or injured in the incident. It was simply my initial reaction brought on by several days of dodging traffic in Rome some years ago. I appologise to anyone who found it objectionable.



dorjun driver -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 3:28:20 PM)

Perhaps because my sea time (tens of thousands of miles) has been under sail twists my idea of "funny". I've been involved in a couple of maritime disasters--on the helping end. No matter how horrific they were, there was always a chortling moment or two. If one can't laugh while weeping, insanity results.



Dili -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 3:58:36 PM)

Well they don't crash in Rome mike but this one crashed. I have been in Rome too in 80's at that time was bumper to bumper and red light was just an warning to look to both sides and go. I liked.




JocMeister -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 7:24:47 PM)

According to Swedish newspapers the captain had spent most of the night in the bar and not on the bridge. Witnesses are claiming he was in one of the bars at the time of impact...
He is also being charged with manslaughter. Guess that was the last time he commanded something bigger than a rowboat :P



sventhebold -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 9:41:40 PM)

Yes getting behind the wheel in Italy is an experience all it's own. I have and will never forget it.



21pzr -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 10:09:25 PM)

GJ: This would not be the first captain to abandon ship before the passengers, a la the "Morro Castle". As I say, "international" crews on cruise ship consist of about 100 professional mariners and 900 hotel staff. Aboard US flag cruise ships, EVERYONE, from the dishwasher to the Captain are required to obtain a Merchant Mariners Document from the USCG, and pass a "Basic Safety course". While all officers on ships, regardless of flag, must be certified as "lifeboatmen" (having passed a course actually handling a lifeboat), the USCG does not allow officers "lifeboatman" certificates to be counted towards the minimum required number of lifeboatmen (since it is assumed that they will have othher duties that would preclude them from manning the lifeboats), meaning that many of our waiters, cooks, and bartenders are USCG certified lifeboatmen. As noted above, many of the staff and crew (guests rarely see the actual "crew" (deck and engine departments) do not speak the same language, yet they are assigned emergency duties. Again, this does not happen on US crewed ships, as everyone must speak English.

As I said in previous post, all of the cruise ships currently operating in the US (except the Pride of America) are crewed similarly to the Costa ships. These ships carry thousands of US passengers every day. Just a thought for when "the boss" tells you she wants to go on a cruise. Unfortunately, while there are many blog sites reviewing cruises, they don't regularly track USCG safety violations, or the training of the crew.

There was another case similar to this last year (I think) where a cruise ship went aground at the Greek island of Santorini, literally on the shore at the harbor entrance, but the ship didn't sink.

Fair winds and following seas to all the sailors out there.

Bill



crsutton -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 10:16:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

i regularly sail during summer with my motor boat (11 mt) and have some experience on sailboats also (use to take a 1 week sailboat cruise every summer), so i think i understand what you mean 21pzr. people who are not used to the sea environement don't understand how risky and "on the edge" can be a boat among the waves...even with th tecnology every boat/ship has nowdays.

However here it's clear that the captain undervalued the situation...clearly he didn't look at the GPS (those rocks are signaled, i can tell you) and did what every sailor would avoid: putting your ship at risk without any good reason.
Worse, that captain abbandoned the ship while 3000 people were still aboard (they found him while he was trying to swim away!!!) and the whole crew was not trained to this kind of emergencies! Just think about that 90% of the crew didn't speak a word of italian or english...most of them were east european waiters...very few real sailors among them! Some witnesses even said that some of the crews didn't even know how to swim![:-]



Yep as a 10 year merchant seaman and former third mate I can chime in a bit here too. People want the cheapest cruise package they can find for their money. Using a fully trained American or European crew would increase your fares because it cost lots of money to train a sailor properly and then pay him an affordable wage so that they and their families can live well enough in our societies. There are a lot of ships out there but the bulk of them although owned by Western corporations are rarely flagged in the nation of origin but in some third rate "flag of convenience" location.Then staffed with poorly trained crewmen (but usually good sailors) from third world Nations. You certainly would not get on an airplane with crew such as this working it. But people think nothing of boarding these floating hotels under these circumstances. So be it.

In addition, you can not expect the captain to be on the bridge of a ship at all times but you would certainly expect to find a good captain on the bridge whenever a ship is traversing restricted waters. In the end, it does not matter-on the open sea, the captain is always responsible no matter the situation.



cohimbra -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/15/2012 10:23:55 PM)

it is customary for the cruise ships pass close to shore to greet visitors to the inhabitants of the island
(the tourists love it, it's very old Italian style);everyone knows it, normal people, the authorities, the
owner of the company ...no one has ever said or done something, even this in perfect Italian style
(I can tell, I'm Italian). The captain was arrested and suggest three crimes: manslaughter, negligent sinking,
abandon ship.
He was drunk or not nobody knows (at least not us), and may take years to come without anything (it has
happened many times, unfortunately).
The only certainty is that there aren't rocks like this on the high seas:
http://m.sky.it/tg24/cronaca/photogallery/2012/01/14/squarcio_nave_crociera_costa_concordia_isola_giglio_naufragio_morti



Apollo11 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/16/2012 8:06:58 AM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

it is customary for the cruise ships pass close to shore to greet visitors to the inhabitants of the island
(the tourists love it, it's very old Italian style);everyone knows it, normal people, the authorities, the
owner of the company ...no one has ever said or done something, even this in perfect Italian style
(I can tell, I'm Italian). The captain was arrested and suggest three crimes: manslaughter, negligent sinking,
abandon ship.
He was drunk or not nobody knows (at least not us), and may take years to come without anything (it has
happened many times, unfortunately).
The only certainty is that there aren't rocks like this on the high seas:
http://m.sky.it/tg24/cronaca/photogallery/2012/01/14/squarcio_nave_crociera_costa_concordia_isola_giglio_naufragio_morti


Thanks for info and link!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I posted some pictures regarding this from UK Daily Mail yesterday at "THE THREAD!!!"...



crsutton -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/16/2012 4:37:35 PM)

The captain is going to get nailed to the wall but there are others that will come under close scrutiny as well. The officers, on the bridge at the time, the helmsman, the lookouts as well as many questions to be answered as to equipment and procedures. Not to mention company policies, orders to the captain, maintenance, crew training. Not sure if modern ships have black boxes these days but I imagine a lot of the electronic information from radar and GPS is now recorded. As with the Exxon Valdes it might take years to fully assign responsibility. Well...that is except for the captain who will need to start working on his resume right away.

As hinted by others it is unfortunate but there are a lot of external pressures on the captain of a ship to deviate for good common sense nautical procedures to maximize the profit potential. The biggest factor being to trade off safety in exchange for time. As it is extremely expensive to run a large ship and 30 minutes shaved off a schedule represents a large savings to the company. For this reason, or in the case of a cruise ship where pleasing the customers takes priority, there are unwritten outside pressures on the captain to fudge on safe practices. This is one of the main reasons why there are accidents and will always be accidents. The captain of a ship is the authority but he is not always in full control as he must answer to higher authorities.



veji1 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/16/2012 6:50:00 PM)

this kind of accident also leads to questionning the rationality of having bigger and bigger boats with 5000 guys on board... One day something will happen and Titanic will look like a picnic... Scary.



HansBolter -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/16/2012 7:42:11 PM)

On May 9, 1980 I narrowly missed losing my life in a maritime disaster.

I and a coworker were carpooling from St. Petersburg to work in Bradenton, south of Tampa Bay. As we approached the Sunshine Skyway Bridge a summer squall blew in off the Gulf of Mexico. The sheet of solid grey rain reduced visibility to about 30 feet. Traffic slowed to 25 mph and we were navigating by the taillights of the vehicle in front of us. The winds were buffetting the car back and forth sideways across the lane. We looked at each other and jointly decided to pull off into the scenic overlook at the foot of the bridge and "wait it out".

The official story of what transpired next can be found by scrolling down the linked wikapedia page to the portion on the Summitt Venture disaster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Skyway_Bridge

We watched the Greyhound bus go by as we pulled off into the scenic overlook. We had been ahead of the bus. The bus was not on the portion of the roadway that dropped out from under the other vehicles. It is believed that the bus drove off the edge after the roadway dropped. We have no way of knowing if we were far enough ahead of the bus to have made it across before the bridge fell or if we would have been on the portion that fell. Both of us firmly believe that the decision to pull over that day saved our lives.

My deepest sympathies go out to the families and loved ones of those lost in this disaster.



US87891 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/16/2012 10:35:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
The captain is going to get nailed to the wall but there are others that will come under close scrutiny as well. The officers, on the bridge at the time, the helmsman, the lookouts as well as many questions to be answered as to equipment and procedures. Not to mention company policies, orders to the captain, maintenance, crew training. Not sure if modern ships have black boxes these days but I imagine a lot of the electronic information from radar and GPS is now recorded. As with the Exxon Valdes it might take years to fully assign responsibility. Well...that is except for the captain who will need to start working on his resume right away.

As hinted by others it is unfortunate but there are a lot of external pressures on the captain of a ship to deviate for good common sense nautical procedures to maximize the profit potential. The biggest factor being to trade off safety in exchange for time. As it is extremely expensive to run a large ship and 30 minutes shaved off a schedule represents a large savings to the company. For this reason, or in the case of a cruise ship where pleasing the customers takes priority, there are unwritten outside pressures on the captain to fudge on safe practices. This is one of the main reasons why there are accidents and will always be accidents. The captain of a ship is the authority but he is not always in full control as he must answer to higher authorities.

Yes, the captain will be nailed to the wall. But not for the reasons you think. The post by cohimbra should be read very carefully. Because what Schettino did was what any cruise ship Captain would do (deviate from nominal course). Talked about this with JWE and he has no issues with Schettino's decision. Big issue with Schettino not marking the Nav warnings on the new course. Modern auto helm programs have all these things in the database. Probably didn't do it because it would show up in the ship's log, and one wants the log to show exactly the preprogrammed course (a Euro law).

So no matter your thoughts on Euro law, Schettino screwed up by deviating from nominal but not putting the new Nav markers into the new course. Many, many Captains deviate. It's hard to scar Schettino for doing what everybody does. It's not hard to scar Schettino for negligence. If you want to be a cowboy, then read the goddam charts.

Place where JWE thinks he ought to be hung is he shined his duty as Captain. Captain has a responsibility to everybody on board. Responsibility doesn't end till everybody is safely off or accounted for. If that means the Captain goes down, then the Captain goes down. Being Captain implies a duty. In this day and age, duty just means being able to zip up your pants. But to JWE, and me, and many others, duty is a moral obligation. Schettino didn't have it.

Matt



bradfordkay -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/16/2012 11:28:39 PM)

What is crazy is that he wouldn't have gone down if he had stayed aboard. The photos clearly show that the majority of the bridge remained above water. Thus he not only proved himself an idiot but a coward as well. His post-incident remarks have only gone on to prove the first impression...



21pzr -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/17/2012 10:25:05 AM)

We are all agreed that the Captain will be prosecuted and punished, as he should. Ultimate responsibility always rests with him.

CRSutton: All merchant ships are equipped with VDR (voyage data recorders), which record vessel course, speed, GPS position, helm position, telegraph position, fathometer, etc. Cruise ships (and soon all merchant ships) have bridge voice recorders, so any conversation on the bridge, at any time will be recorded. The Engine Control Room on cruise ships also have voice recorders. Surveillance cameras are also mounted in the bridge and ECR, recorded on DVD's. One thing that took some getting used to when I started on cruise ships, after 20+ years on various types of merchantmen was the size of the maneuvering watches (required when in restricted waters, entering port, etc). Typical cargo ship: Bridge (Master, mate on watch, helmsman), ECR (Chief Engineer, duty engineer). Cruise ship: Bridge (Captain, Staff Captain, senior deck officer of watch, junior deck officer of watch, helmsman, lookout), ECR (Chief Engineer, Staff Chief Engineer, Chief Electrical Engineer, duty engineer).

US87891: While the Captain may not have amended the "passage plan" to reflect the course deviation, that would be a relatively minor offense, but one which will be used to prove negligence in the homicide or manslaughter proceedings. He had to know that the VDR would record the ships course and position. His main failure was abandoning the vessel before the passengers. Usually, there are only 3 crew members assigned to each lifeboat, each boat capable of carrying 150+ passengers. 90% of the crew are assigned to liferafts. The raft stations are usually interspersed with the boat stations, so the boats would normally be launched first, with the guests, and then the crew assembles and evacuates by raft. The Captain would be assigned to one of these rafts. As the surviving 2nd Officer of the Titanic testified when asked why he left his station, " I didn't leave the ship, it left me". Ships officers duty requires that they see that all passengers and crew are evacuated before leaving the ship. While no one can tell how he/she will react in a life threatening situation until it happens, you would hope that all the hours of training and a sense of professionalism would kick in, and actions would be automatic.

It is truly sad that in this age of immense regulation of the maritime industry, with all the required training, with all the "big brother" recorders, that really nothing has changed from the Titanic or the Morro Castle. The quantity and scope of the "International Safety Management" system that shipping companies are required to follow have effectively removed common sense from seafaring. Everyone is so concerned with covering their butts with paperwork that the actual process of sailing and maintaining a ship becomes secondary to the paperwork. And yet, does it provide a better, safer, environment to operate a ship in? This case shows that it doesn't. All it will do is be used by Costa Cruises to deny responsibility and throw the Captain and the officers under the bus: "We have written policies about this, obviously the Captain did not follow them, so how could we know and be responsible for this awful tragedy". Just watch and see.

Bill



sandman455 -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/17/2012 12:35:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

. . . His main failure was abandoning the vessel before the passengers. . .


Here is a different perspective.

As a former officer in a navy and as a company owner I see the captain's main failure is that he totally disregarded his mission. Getting off the dying vessel too early isn't even on the radar. He totals a $500 million asset, kills some of his passengers and wrecks an entire industry. You realize he has left thousands unemployed and thousands more will follow. Everyone one with that company, cruise ship industry and the industries that support them will feel the pain. Ships sink and people die but not for getting closer to the shore so better pictures can be taken or so folks can actually see who they are waving at. This is an obscenity to all who have ever been entrusted with such responsibility.

It would have been 10x better if he was drunk and passed out on the Lido deck. At least then his employer and all who are following the story could relate to something classified as an illness. Something that could have been hidden. Instead all he had was bad judgment and that is exactly the stuff everyone tries so hard to weed out before they delegate so much responsibility to the individual. It is a nightare the few could understand unless you actually entrusted someone with so much.

A person in command of a vessel whether in a military or a civilian has responsibilities. They do not include making folks happy - ever. To think otherwise is to clearly not see it from the perspective of those who own that ship and fund his paycheck. They care about the passengers being happy, but they don't pay this man to worry about it. He's there to protect their investment and to carry out a mission that is as simple and as complex as getting them from point A to point B safe and sound. That is it.

When you completely disregard this all encompassing mission, it doesn't really matter if you push passengers out of the way to jump off first. It's inconsequential.



21pzr -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/17/2012 4:17:30 PM)

Sandman: While I agree with most of what you are saying, but must disagree with some of it. Having seen the cruise industry from the inside, I know that the "mission" of the Captain, as defined by the company, is to manage the vessel to maximize revenue, not to act as a traditional vessel Master. For the four years I was with NCL, trying to make the US flag operation a success (which unfortunately didn't happen, 3 ships downgrading to 1 and losing hundreds of millions of dollars each year), the senior officers aboard the 3 vessels tried to change the cruise industry to the way the US merchant marine works, without success. While ultimate responsibility resides with the Captain, the Staff Captain performs the shipboard duties more common to a merchant vessel's Master. The companies actually do pay the Captain to worry about the guest's happiness. From what I've seen of the cruise industry, from personal experience and talking to others in the industry at different companies, the professional mariners in the Deck and Engine departments are considered to be second-class citizens to the Hotel department, and the vessel is really only considered to be a moving hotel, not a vessel. Is this right? Of course not. However, until the number of disasters like this one reach a level where the public will no longer pay to risk their lives on these ships, that is the mentality of the industry. Do the Coast Guards of various nations consider cruise ships to be ships or hotels? Ships, of course, and require the officers and crew to act accordingly, but they are only there once a year or so (unless the worst happens), while the company is at the end of the internet 24/7.

Having worked aboard nearly every type of merchant ship out there (break bulk, container, RO/RO, tanker, bulker, cruise, and offshore installations), I can say that the cruise industry is unique in its adherence to the "guest experience" over operation of a vessel. This is one reason I left the cruise industry.

An example of the way that safety regulations have lagged behind technology are the ship's lifeboats. The Oasis of the Seas, the largest cruise ship out there, carries 6000+ passengers, yet only has the industry standard 18 lifeboats, so each lifeboat is rated for 370 persons. The "captain" of this lifeboat, if ever needed, will be at best a 3rd Mate, or deck rating. In the US, you need a USCG license to operate a passenger vessel for more than 6 people. 370 people is not a boat, that is a small ship. Yet, the companies will not consider adding more, smaller, boats due to the increased capital cost, maintenance cost, and manning.

One aspect of the industry that I did find interesting, and I don't believe it was limited to NCL, was the "pysch screening" that all officers were required to take. This turned out to be concerned with each candidates capability to see the big picture while being bombarded with details, and not with any professional maritime knowledge. This ability to continue to see the big picture, or "mission", is what I think Sandman is referring to, and is what is required of all seagoing officers, but obviously is not wide-spread, as the companies feel they need to screen for something that should have been instilled in the officer at the Academies.

Bill



bradfordkay -> RE: Don't blame our virtual admirals...real ones are.... (1/17/2012 6:12:22 PM)

The Italian Coast Guard is apparently after the Captain's head:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2017257923_apeuitalycruiseaground.html

Schettino has insisted that he stayed aboard until the ship was evacuated. However, a recording of his conversation with Italian Coast Guard Capt. Gregorio De Falco that emerged Tuesday indicates he fled before all passengers were off - and then resisted De Falco's repeated orders to return.

"You go on board and then you will tell me how many people there are. Is that clear?" De Falco shouted in the audio tape.

Schettino resisted, saying the ship was tipping and it was dark. At the time, he and his second-in-command were in a lifeboat and the captain said he was coordinating the rescue from there. He also said he was not going back on board the ship "because the other lifeboat is stopped." Passengers have said many lifeboats on the exposed port side of the ship didn't winch down after the ship had capsized.

De Falco shouted back: "And so what? You want to go home, Schettino? It is dark and you want to go home? Get on that prow of the boat using the pilot ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what their needs are. Now!"

"You go aboard. It is an order. Don't make any more excuses. You have declared 'Abandon ship,' now I am in charge," De Falco shouted.

At one point, De Falco vowed "I'm going to make sure you get in trouble. ...I am going to make you pay for this. Go on board, (expletive)!"

Schettino was finally heard agreeing to reboard on the tape. But the coast guard has said he never went back, and had police arrest him on land.




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