RE: own HQ Displacement (Full Version)

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AFV -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/11/2012 12:37:19 AM)

Except for Flaviusx, even though he would never make that mistake, he would still see the popup.



Flaviusx -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/11/2012 1:08:27 AM)

I've made the mistake a few times. Not in ages, though.

I think this issue tends to occur more for the Axis than the Soviets, as the former has to push their HQs forward aggressively in a way that's never really true for the Sovs (not even when the Sovs are on the offensive.)




Redmarkus5 -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/11/2012 10:33:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

As you said, there is never any reason to want to move the HQ second. So why do it then?

Move the HQ first, there is no problem. If one didn't read the manual, then the fault lies with..... who?


With the noob player who is new to war games yet makes up 99% of the potential consumer market out there?

The harder a game is for a noob to enjoy, the less likely it is to sell. The less it sells, the less chance WE have to see it improved by the Devs.

The only way to keep this market alive and to keep us entertained is to encourage new players to join up. That means fixing the things that most new players have a hard time dealing with so that they don't get frustrated and uninstall the game, as so many have already.



Aurelian -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/11/2012 6:54:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

As you said, there is never any reason to want to move the HQ second. So why do it then?

Move the HQ first, there is no problem. If one didn't read the manual, then the fault lies with..... who?


With the noob player who is new to war games yet makes up 99% of the potential consumer market out there?

The harder a game is for a noob to enjoy, the less likely it is to sell. The less it sells, the less chance WE have to see it improved by the Devs.

The only way to keep this market alive and to keep us entertained is to encourage new players to join up. That means fixing the things that most new players have a hard time dealing with so that they don't get frustrated and uninstall the game, as so many have already.


I kind of doubt a noob to the market would start with something this complex in the first place. A noob would be more likely to buy AH's Victory in the Pacific before DG's War in the Pacific. And I would argue that most wargamers, at least the ones who are vets at it, would RTM first. I know people who won't even try a game w/o reading the manual first. (I'm not one of them, but after having a few HQ's disappear, I looked it up. There's even a sticky about it ) http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2641036

And noobs have it much easier than it used to be. They have forums to read. PDF manuals one can search.

Given that, and even in this thread it's been stated how it works, there is no excuse for allowing your own HQs to displace.



elmo3 -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/11/2012 7:21:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

... so that they don't get frustrated and uninstall the game, as so many have already.


What proof do you have for the last part of this statement? You have no idea how many people bought the game, much less how many have stopped playing. And you can't count the handful of chronic complainers here who seem to get more enjoyment out of bashing the game than playing it, even though most appear to still be playing.



Encircled -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/11/2012 10:21:08 PM)

Letting your own HQ's displace is like forgetting your wife's birthday.

You only do it once.



AFV -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 3:20:54 AM)

Aurelian: You clearly have misunderstood the point people have tried to make.
Its not that we don't know the rule. I read the manual, I know the rule. Its not that we disagree with the rule.
Its a simple misclick.
It would be similar the popups that are currently *already* in the game. I won't go to the bother of listing them all, but one for example is F12. Its to end your turn.

I know that. Its clearly stated- yet a popup comes up when you click on it. I wonder why? Its because a simple misclick could really fu your turn.
Do you really want to format this drive? Y/N
etc.




Aurelian -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 4:25:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

Aurelian: You clearly have misunderstood the point people have tried to make.
Its not that we don't know the rule. I read the manual, I know the rule. Its not that we disagree with the rule.
Its a simple misclick.
It would be similar the popups that are currently *already* in the game. I won't go to the bother of listing them all, but one for example is F12. Its to end your turn.

I know that. Its clearly stated- yet a popup comes up when you click on it. I wonder why? Its because a simple misclick could really fu your turn.
Do you really want to format this drive? Y/N
etc.




A simple misclick is avoided by the simple act of paying attention. This isn't the EU/HOI series being played at warp speed.

It isn't the same as F12. Or a drive format. There already *is* a solution. Move the HQ first.




AFV -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 4:32:46 AM)

There already is a solution to hitting F12. Don't hit it until you are ready to end your turn. The rules are quite clear on that.
I will take the liberty of using the same logic use regarding HQ displacement.



gradenko2k -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 7:27:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
A simple misclick is avoided by the simple act of paying attention. This isn't the EU/HOI series being played at warp speed.

It isn't the same as F12. Or a drive format. There already *is* a solution. Move the HQ first.

It's pretty ironic that you bring up EU / HOI, when those games have a full-featured "pause-and-throw-a-pop-up" design precisely so that you don't miss anything that you deem important, and you can customize what it pops-up with so you only get what you really need to be alerted for and not be bothered by events you consider trivial.

Just because WITE is a turn-based game does not mean that people are immune to making mistakes. Just because people are aware of the ruling does not mean they'll always remember the implications or the correct turn order. Just because there's a correct way to do it does not mean it's superfluous to add a mistake-catching feature. And just because the players would like to add a mistake-catching feature does not mean you'll soon have to add a similar one for every other small occurrence in the game.



randallw -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 7:52:47 AM)

I doubt lots of people will avoid buying the game because there is no "Warning! Your HQ may displace!" popup.



chuckfourth -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 8:58:16 AM)

Hi
The problem with the popup is that it slows things down, probably requires a mouse click to close it, isnt necessary most of the time, and so is annoying.
Colouring the HQ to HQ "~" link red avoids all these disadvantages, is probably simpler to implement and nobody can argue about wether its a good idea or not because theres no downside.
(other than having a close look at the logic)



Aurelian -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 7:27:49 PM)

This isn't a bug that needs fixing.

It's one thing to have a box pop up and ask if you really are done with your turn.

Why? Because there are things you just may of forgotten to do.

There is, however, no reason that you need one to ask if you want to leave a HQ by itself in an enemy zoc.

Why? Because there is no reason why you would want to.




Aurelian -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/12/2012 7:32:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
A simple misclick is avoided by the simple act of paying attention. This isn't the EU/HOI series being played at warp speed.

It isn't the same as F12. Or a drive format. There already *is* a solution. Move the HQ first.

It's pretty ironic that you bring up EU / HOI, when those games have a full-featured "pause-and-throw-a-pop-up" design precisely so that you don't miss anything that you deem important, and you can customize what it pops-up with so you only get what you really need to be alerted for and not be bothered by events you consider trivial.



Really? A multi player game of HOI. Done that once. Never again. Why? On the one hand, I had those who wanted it to move at light speed. On the other, those who wanted it to crawl. Now, I don't recall if you can pause it if you're not the host. But then you'll get all kinds of screaming if you could. Even if the host can and does.



gradenko2k -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/13/2012 2:05:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
This isn't a bug that needs fixing.
It's one thing to have a box pop up and ask if you really are done with your turn.
Why? Because there are things you just may of forgotten to do.
There is, however, no reason that you need one to ask if you want to leave a HQ by itself in an enemy zoc.
Why? Because there is no reason why you would want to.

Of course it's not a bug that needs fixing - it's a suggestion for a feature, and one that several other people is a totally legitimate issue.

And no, going by your own reasoning, there shouldn't even be a confirmation for ending your turn. As long as you're paying attention, you should never miss anything, right?

Allowing the player to cause self-HQ-displacement is akin to playing a solitaire boardgame, where the player is on his own to know all the rules and enforce them on himself, by himself, instead of utilizing the computer not just as a ref, but also as a coach to prevent unambiguously bad outcomes.



Flaviusx -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/13/2012 2:09:58 AM)

It's not a bug, but it is a quality of life issue for a lot of players, Aurelian. I'd say it falls under the rubric of possible UI improvements.

There may be ways to address this without the dreaded (for me anyways) popup screens.






AFV -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/13/2012 2:22:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

This isn't a bug that needs fixing.

It's one thing to have a box pop up and ask if you really are done with your turn.

Why? Because there are things you just may of forgotten to do.

There is, however, no reason that you need one to ask if you want to leave a HQ by itself in an enemy zoc.

Why? Because there is no reason why you would want to.





Aurelian, thank you very much for making my point: "Why? Because there is no reason why you would want to."
That is exactly why! Yes, since there is absolutely no reason you would want to do that is why you should be asked "are you sure you want to do that?"

And we are also in complete agreement, this is not a bug that needs to be fixed.

I knew you would come around!



chuckfourth -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/13/2012 2:36:48 AM)

Hi Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

There may be ways to address this without the dreaded (for me anyways) popup screens.



No 'May' about it make the HQ to HQ link red, fixed.



Flaviusx -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/13/2012 2:52:29 AM)

I'm biting my tongue here.

Chuckles, let's just say there's more than one way to skin this cat.




chuckfourth -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/13/2012 4:52:10 AM)

Hi Flaviusx
What are the other ways?



Joel Billings -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/14/2012 3:12:40 AM)

Pavel has added this item into the next patch which should go out tomorrow (there were no data changes in the patch, mostly a few bug fixes):

Interface Change – Friendly non combat units (HQs and air bases) and routed units will no longer displace automatically during their movement phase. These units will be outlined in red as a warning, and will displace automatically in the next logistics phase if they are still next to an enemy unit and not stacked with a unit with a positive CV.


We are close to making an official release (1 to 2 weeks), and are now just trying to test and weed out any last minute bugs.



AFV -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/14/2012 3:54:03 AM)

Awesome! Thanks Joel/Flaviusx for listening!



Flaviusx -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/14/2012 3:55:54 AM)

Thank Pavel, he was the one who decided to do this on his own initiative. It's just one of the many small ways he's always looking to improve the UI.




Rasputitsa -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/14/2012 10:08:16 AM)

Thanks very much.[:)]



Blubel -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/14/2012 9:57:27 PM)

Thanks a lot!



Berkut -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/15/2012 6:51:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
How far do you want to go? A pop up for each and every unit? (You could attach Sus to this. You could merge this. Do you want to keep this FZ next to the enemy? OKH/STAVKA has SUs attached to it. Want to move any? This air unit has low morale/numbers. Want to put it in the NR. This unit is unready, do you really want to move it to the front? Adnauseum.)

The key difference between the HQ displacement issue and the slippery slope argument you're trying to present is that you never want to deliberately cause HQ displacement if you can avoid it.

In contrast, there are cases where attaching or not attaching SUs is okay, merging or not merging units is okay, having units attached to STAVKA is okay, forcing an air unit to keep working with low morale is okay and moving an unready unit to front line is something you really want to do.



Bingo.

This is not an issue of "Hey, this is a hard game! Deal with it!" this is just bad interface design. If the user should NEVER do something...then why let them do it by accident?

Especially something as common as moving units. There are kind of a lot of units in this game that need to be moved every single turn. Forgetting to always move the HQ first is not exactly the mark of a tactically inept player. Nor is being OCD enough to never forget the mark of a good player.



AFV -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/15/2012 11:49:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut


Bingo.

This is not an issue of "Hey, this is a hard game! Deal with it!" this is just bad interface design. If the user should NEVER do something...then why let them do it by accident?

Especially something as common as moving units. There are kind of a lot of units in this game that need to be moved every single turn. Forgetting to always move the HQ first is not exactly the mark of a tactically inept player. Nor is being OCD enough to never forget the mark of a good player.


Well put!



chuckfourth -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/16/2012 9:13:42 AM)

Hey Thanks Pavel.
Youve made a lot of exasperated little grognards very happy.



morganbj -> RE: own HQ Displacement (2/16/2012 6:07:44 PM)

I wonder if Aurelian will complain now about the red outlining. [:D]

Well, at least we won't have to insult his mother anymore.



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