quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf
Nothing. Oh, wait, garbage.The plane itself is OK but I have stopped counting how often I sunk that this ship along with Slava, Kirov etc. in Harpoon Classic and H3. The weak point imho is that this ship carries less Aircraft then their american counterparts. Against an american CVGB this russian CVBG would simply have no chance to survive an encounter when things get hot. Not even thinking of the design itself as this ship cannot handle the same amount of planes in a given time than a modern Nimitz carrier could do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

Nothing. Oh, wait, garbage.The plane itself is OK but I have stopped counting how often I sunk that this ship along with Slava, Kirov etc. in Harpoon Classic and H3. The weak point imho is that this ship carries less Aircraft then their american counterparts. Against an american CVGB this russian CVBG would simply have no chance to survive an encounter when things get hot. Not even thinking of the design itself as this ship cannot handle the same amount of planes in a given time than a modern Nimitz carrier could do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanshin ron

Old and probably in need of total refit or scrapping.[:)] Easy to nail in the port by an airstrike from Finland or Norway i think.

Where are they sending it, Syria?
Or the Hormuz strait? War could start there from a collision with everyone parked there.
[:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I am beginning to suspect that almost any carrier is just too vulnerable these days to be worth it. The only thing that makes our American carriers useful is that at this time there is really no world power with the capability to take them. But I bet if they were in the hands of another nation that we would have no trouble taking them out....Which means that sooner or later somebody else will have that capability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Any defense can be overwhelmed by an attack if the #s are great enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

There is another tactic which I am sure 5th Fleet is concerned about which the Iranians are geared towards using. Understanding that a CV would not normally operate in restricted waters such as the Persian Gulf, since the Fleet HQ and home port is within those restricted waters it creates a little dilemma for a carrier going through the Strait of Hormuz and the Iranians go with an asymmetric attack with swarm tactics by small boats. Don't know how many 25 footers with high speed torpedoes you need to take down a CVBG transiting the Strait but it could be interesting!

BTW....Hey Steve, we haven't had any more meet ups in DC!

Pete 

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In fairness , the Kiev's were never intended to go toe to toe with USN flat tops. They were designed for a different mission, with a very different doctrine in mind.

Please keep in Mind that these ships were the brainchild of Sergi Goshkov (who kept a sign of his desk that read "Perfection is the enemy of good enough") Kruschev's head of the Navy. Where as Stalin wanted a big,blue water balanced fleet with battleships and carriers, Kruschev wanted none of that. Nothing larger than a Cruiser , "Which was only good for carting admirals around". So Goshkov was limited both by resources , and by politics. It's hard to lobby in favor of carriers when the party has just decreed them useless and symbols of Imperialism!

Goshkov was forced to rely on submarines and small craft rather than BB's and CV's. Missiles instead of bombers. So that's what he did. Build a big coastal defense Navy to force the CV's well back, limiting their nuclear attack aircraft. (The Soviets saw ALL war as leading to a nuclear confrontation. The question was always WHEN, never IF). And this worked well as long as the Navy faced CV's. Their own subs would raid u-boat style (joined by a few CL's and DDG's) on western convoys.

The Polaris came out. Big problem. Now you need to force them back, with landbased ASW , lots of cheap frigates , destroyers and Anti-submarine cruisers (The Soviets NEVER called them that, but Large ASW Patrol ships). Then Moskva and Leningrad , what we would call CHV's , (They would call them "Tactical aircraft carrying ASW Cruisers"--quite a mouthful, but still thinking ASW , not strike).

Eventually the Soviets would build SSBN's of their own (1st Yankee's which operated off Bermuda, then the Delta series , operating further and farther back from the USA) and gave their Navy a new job, protecting those SSBN's. ASW ships were good against western SSN's and SS's, and the surface ships with their long range missiles could threaten ASW CV's (Like the ASW Essex's and latter the British Invincibles) , but could do nothing against flocks of P-3's,Nimrods and Atlantic's.

So enter the Kiev class. Their main battery was not the Yak-36 (or sometimes called YAK 38) Forger VTOL planes they carried, but those same "crappy" missiles that Terminus refers to. They were quite a threat to USN CV's. And these ships carried what was considered a massive battery of AAA and AS missile in their day. And along with the usual Hormone and Helix ASW and early warning aircraft , we had the YAK's. No threat to F-14's,F-4's, or even Harriers and Sea Harriers. But to P-3's, Nimrods and other Maritime patrol aircraft and Helicopters? A huge bloody threat! (I speak from 1st hand experince!).

With the later Delta's and eventual the Typhoon class, the Soviets were able to retreat into "Bastions" just outside their harbors where ASW aircraft couldn't go , and SSN's did so at their extreme peril. Later , the Soviets got the bright idea of moving the Typhoons under the edge of the ice pack, where they could be protected by their fleet , and drive MPA aircraft crazy trying to get at them through the ice!

After the fall of the Soveit union , three of the Kiev's were scrapped and Goshkov was used as a test ship, being fitted with a "phased Array" RADAR system , kind of a "poor man's SPY-1" (used with the USN Aegis system).

So why was the Goshkov fitted as a CV? Because that was all they had, having sold the unfinished Varayg (sister ship to the Tiblisi/Kuneskov), and you can only sell what you have. Obviously some arms dealer mad a hell of a commission , as she was sold twice to the same buyer. 1st to buy her, then full price again to FINISH her!

So while the Goshkov was "good enough" for Soviet work, how will she perform in her new role? I'm going out on a limb and say "probably not good enough". [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Steve,

My recall of the boat length was likely incorrect but no biggie since you got the gist. Yes, there was a classified wargame of that scenario and the CVBG had its clock cleaned so badly that they halted the wargame and changed the parameters for a "blue" force win. There have been some recent media articles on this wargame with all the saber rattling going on over there.

Pete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In fairness , the Kiev's were never intended to go toe to toe with USN flat tops. They were designed for a different mission, with a very different doctrine in mind.

Please keep in Mind that these ships were the brainchild of Sergi Goshkov (who kept a sign of his desk that read "Perfection is the enemy of good enough") Kruschev's head of the Navy. Where as Stalin wanted a big,blue water balanced fleet with battleships and carriers, Kruschev wanted none of that. Nothing larger than a Cruiser , "Which was only good for carting admirals around". So Goshkov was limited both by resources , and by politics. It's hard to lobby in favor of carriers when the party has just decreed them useless and symbols of Imperialism!

Goshkov was forced to rely on submarines and small craft rather than BB's and CV's. Missiles instead of bombers. So that's what he did. Build a big coastal defense Navy to force the CV's well back, limiting their nuclear attack aircraft. (The Soviets saw ALL war as leading to a nuclear confrontation. The question was always WHEN, never IF). And this worked well as long as the Navy faced CV's. Their own subs would raid u-boat style (joined by a few CL's and DDG's) on western convoys.

The Polaris came out. Big problem. Now you need to force them back, with landbased ASW , lots of cheap frigates , destroyers and Anti-submarine cruisers (The Soviets NEVER called them that, but Large ASW Patrol ships). Then Moskva and Leningrad , what we would call CHV's , (They would call them "Tactical aircraft carrying ASW Cruisers"--quite a mouthful, but still thinking ASW , not strike).

Eventually the Soviets would build SSBN's of their own (1st Yankee's which operated off Bermuda, then the Delta series , operating further and farther back from the USA) and gave their Navy a new job, protecting those SSBN's. ASW ships were good against western SSN's and SS's, and the surface ships with their long range missiles could threaten ASW CV's (Like the ASW Essex's and latter the British Invincibles) , but could do nothing against flocks of P-3's,Nimrods and Atlantic's.

So enter the Kiev class. Their main battery was not the Yak-36 (or sometimes called YAK 38) Forger VTOL planes they carried, but those same "crappy" missiles that Terminus refers to. They were quite a threat to USN CV's. And these ships carried what was considered a massive battery of AAA and AS missile in their day. And along with the usual Hormone and Helix ASW and early warning aircraft , we had the YAK's. No threat to F-14's,F-4's, or even Harriers and Sea Harriers. But to P-3's, Nimrods and other Maritime patrol aircraft and Helicopters? A huge bloody threat! (I speak from 1st hand experince!).

With the later Delta's and eventual the Typhoon class, the Soviets were able to retreat into "Bastions" just outside their harbors where ASW aircraft couldn't go , and SSN's did so at their extreme peril. Later , the Soviets got the bright idea of moving the Typhoons under the edge of the ice pack, where they could be protected by their fleet , and drive MPA aircraft crazy trying to get at them through the ice!

After the fall of the Soveit union , three of the Kiev's were scrapped and Goshkov was used as a test ship, being fitted with a "phased Array" RADAR system , kind of a "poor man's SPY-1" (used with the USN Aegis system).

So why was the Goshkov fitted as a CV? Because that was all they had, having sold the unfinished Varayg (sister ship to the Tiblisi/Kuneskov), and you can only sell what you have. Obviously some arms dealer mad a hell of a commission , as she was sold twice to the same buyer. 1st to buy her, then full price again to FINISH her!

So while the Goshkov was "good enough" for Soviet work, how will she perform in her new role? I'm going out on a limb and say "probably not good enough". [:D]

Thanks Steve! [:)]

BTW, what do you think about rumored China's long range (almost ICMB) missile that in theory threaten CVs?


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Steve,

My recall of the boat length was likely incorrect but no biggie since you got the gist. Yes, there was a classified wargame of that scenario and the CVBG had its clock cleaned so badly that they halted the wargame and changed the parameters for a "blue" force win. There have been some recent media articles on this wargame with all the saber rattling going on over there.

Pete

Paul van Riper struck again? [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

Are you suggesting that A-mad-in-de-head's missiles aren't firing? [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Almost as dangerous as Iran's mastery of Photoshop and their use of Paper Maiche weapons in parades![:D]

Are you suggesting that A-mad-in-de-head's missiles aren't firing? [:D]

Last year , Mr. Ahm-a-dinner-jacket's forces claimed a mass launch of 14 missiles at once. They launched 3, but the photo showed 14 ( some of them without contrails , some with miss-matched). It confirmed an ugly and feared truth. The Iranians have Photoshop and are not afraid to use it! [:D]