snipers (Full Version)

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panzerfist -> snipers (1/15/2001 8:13:00 PM)

this might be a bit hard to insert into the SPWAW, but id like to talk about sniper attributes. i notice that my snipers are still (seemingly) too easy for the enemy to find. ideally, they should be able to move virtually anywhere without being spotted and should get at least one kill per attack (well, maybe a little less). the reason i say this is i have played a few scenarios now where my snipers whip out five shots and get maybe one kill. as far as spotting, i have had to place tanks on a hex before i could spot a unit of infantry and my enemy (somehow) managed to spot my sniper from about 3 hexes away. i understand spotting in a tank is difficult. but would it be possible to make these snipers more like snipers as opposed to simply a single guy running around. also - are there currently any scenarios that feature snipers - such as the objective would be to assassinate a leader or something. i think you could still use mass units in a scenario like this, but the added storyline would be pretty intersting. thanks p/f/ "SPOON!"



panzerfist -> (1/15/2001 8:14:00 PM)

p.s. - if anyone is interested, PC gamers lastest issue features a whole bunch of ww2 games that will be released or have just been released. check it out. and no, i dont work there. p/f/ "SPOON!"



Tortfeasor -> (1/16/2001 3:20:00 AM)

You said sniper, a finnish sniper (a period of mayby 1 year) shot over 400 with an iron sight and over 200 that they had sended after him in the Winter War in finland. read it here (Suko Kolkka. Finland, 1939 - 1940) http://www.snipercountry.com/sniphistory.htm



Thornado -> (1/16/2001 3:44:00 PM)

I agree with you! Snipers are far to easy to spot for the enemy. In numerous occasions enemy infantry has spotted my sniper (hidden in the woods) as far away as 5 hexes (250 meters...). Thats quite a feat to spot a single hidden guy on that distance, not to mention to actually kill him from that distance (which happens far to often) Maybe the snipers could be made a little more "sniperish"? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ------------------ _______________________ Thornado - You'll never know what hit you -



Fredde -> (1/16/2001 4:31:00 PM)

Thanks for the link! Interesting reading [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
quote:

Originally posted by Tortfeasor: You said sniper, a finnish sniper (a period of mayby 1 year) shot over 400 with an iron sight and over 200 that they had sended after him in the Winter War in finland. read it here (Suko Kolkka. Finland, 1939 - 1940) http://www.snipercountry.com/sniphistory.htm



Recon_slith -> (1/16/2001 4:53:00 PM)

I've always found enemy snipers hard to spot. Even moving in the open they often escape detection. My real beef is that they can call in artillery fire which is just a leeeetle bit ahistorical. ------------------ Wait for Death. There's a choice? Recon



Larry Holt -> (1/16/2001 9:47:00 PM)

I kind of agree with the opinons expresed here. I think an elite sniper should be darn hard spot or kill except with area fire (arty, flamethrower, etc. those weapons that would hit the sniper without the firer knowing exactly where he is) or with massed fire at close range (a free file barrage of bullets would cover most of the target hex and possibly hit the sniper without being directly targeted). Of course snipers should have a good chance to kill enemy snipers since they were trained in target detection and accurate fire. Green snipers should be easy to find and kill. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Silvarius -> (1/16/2001 10:20:00 PM)

I have recently discovered that snipers could realy be demi-gods, killing up to 30 opponents by turn ! He just have to shoot on an assault boat. He as 90 to 98 % to sink it with its entire squadron. I tested it recently by defending a river against a massive infantry assault. It was a slaughter ! hundreds of enemy soldiers were killed by my handful of snipers. Can it be possible to have something more realistic in the next version or is it too much of a problem ?



panda124c -> (1/17/2001 12:52:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Silvarius: I have recently discovered that snipers could realy be demi-gods, killing up to 30 opponents by turn ! He just have to shoot on an assault boat. He as 90 to 98 % to sink it with its entire squadron. I tested it recently by defending a river against a massive infantry assault. It was a slaughter ! hundreds of enemy soldiers were killed by my handful of snipers. Can it be possible to have something more realistic in the next version or is it too much of a problem ?
The problem here is the AI not using smoke properly. Smoke should always be used to cover a river crossing. Any weapon can take out a rubber boat and drown the passengers. The use of smoke by the AI should be fixed. Otherwise defending against an AI river crossing is no challenge.



BruceAZ -> (1/17/2001 8:09:00 AM)

I agree with most of the treads here. A sniper should be very hard to spot, has a higher kill rate for non-vehicle units but can easily be destroyed if found which is historically correct.



lakuz -> (1/17/2001 9:17:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fredde: Thanks for the link! Interesting reading [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
I have readed from that Simo Häyhä couple of times in our local newspaper (you guess where I'm from?). He had to stop because he wounded in action, who knows how many he would killed. He said in article, that using scoped rifle was dangerouns, because you have to rise your head couple of centimeters more than aiming with bare eye. In war, he got new high quality scoped rifle from some high ranked officer, as present of skill and courage. But Häyhä refused to use it, because he know that many snipers have died because raising head, just to see trough scope. He killed one elite soviet sniper, when others made bait (raised empty helmet, or something), Häyhä spotted lens glare from his scope for just a second and fired couple of rounds at glare, killing enemy sniper. Then he covered from heavy,angry mortar fire.



JTGEN -> (1/25/2001 11:43:00 PM)

I agree that snipers are too easy to spot. AI ha several times spotted my veteran snipers from 5-6 hexes distance and the sniper was in forest! This should not be possible and if fired at he should be able to hide again and then fire without getting spotted. They also make wery good scouts as they are not easily spotted and can also cause damage to the enemy more than a two man scout team witch is also more expensive. PS. This finnish sniper who is atributed with 505 kills in winter war did it in about 3 months, so about 5-6 kills a day. That is quite effective. Russians can blaim them selves as to my knowledge imperial Russia used finnish as snipers pre 1917. So there was tradition in the field.



RockinHarry -> (1/26/2001 1:31:00 AM)

I agree with most here. Maybe raising the "elite attribute" in the OOB (editor) help all snipers getting more experience right from the start, so they keep hidden longer. The higher the experience, the better they hide?! Green Snipers??? I always assumed, they were specially trained men or talented marksmen! As you see in the game, a green one is just a "bullet magnet", like other green units, too. Ok if this works, then they are even better "supermarksmen", cause of the raised experience. Maybe lowering the other attributes now, responsible for the killing power, like range finder etc. or the sniper rifle itself leads to more realistic snipers??? Dont know... Will check it out, later.... ------------------- RockinHarry



szwed -> (1/26/2001 2:30:00 AM)

The second suggestion of Panzerfist - snipers should effect to experience all squad - they chose "the best targets" officers, machine guns personel, etc. - and lowering it during the battle. (I was wondering if loses in campaigne influence on squad experience)



Tortfeasor -> (1/26/2001 3:39:00 AM)

Have you any favorit sites of Finnish snipers.
quote:

Originally posted by JTGEN: PS. This finnish sniper who is atributed with 505 kills in winter war did it in about 3 months, so about 5-6 kills a day. That is quite effective. Russians can blaim them selves as to my knowledge imperial Russia used finnish as snipers pre 1917. So there was tradition in the field.



Peregrine Falcon -> (1/26/2001 5:33:00 AM)

I like to use snipers in certain PBEM-games. Snipers are very effective if used in a right way. They can create lots of havoc behind enemy lines, and even if just "One shot, one kill" (well, usually -- sometimes I have seen one shot killing two men [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) I dont know what to think about this issue though.. Maybe snipers are still easy to spot, but when comparing to previous versions of SP, there is lots of improvement. But I'll also like to see some more upgrades to sniper units as well, so I agree with others in this thread. More elite status, more reliable kills.... Size is already zero, so how to decrease enemy spotting of snipers even further??... [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img] I guess there are other ways as well? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Arralen -> (1/26/2001 4:42:00 PM)

You may turn down the "overall-spotting-percentage" (preference screen), but my recent experience is that with even 70% settings moving units get too easily spotted. What maybe help further is not to move you snipers but set them to defensive stance so they dig in (if you don't use C&C, letting them sit there for a turn should do the same). Arralen



Silvarius -> (1/26/2001 4:55:00 PM)

Hello, I'm really suprised to read that you find snipers too easy to spot ! I have played snipers for hundred of hours (I like them very much) and not even one was spotted before he opened fire. I mean in a static stance of course. I have played numerous battles where they could shoot 20+ bullets without being spotted. If you move them, that's another story, especially if you make them run (let's say advance at more than half their maximum speed). But that seems normal to me, as it's quite difficult to move quickly without being spotted in an area actively scanned by the enemy. I had an experience, during my military service, where I personnaly spotted 2 crouching "ennemies" (that were only manoeuvers) at more than 100 meters without binoculars just because of a small flash of colour slighly moving. Has any marines (as it seems there are in number hanging around that forum) also experienced that ? Regarding their experience, snipers were not systematicaly veterant soldiers. There were actually more than 1000 Russian women snipers who claimed more than 12000 kills during the war. If you want experienced snipers in your campaigns, just select a few in your core battle group as I do and let them improve with time. Rename them with true names and I bet they'll become your closest friends before long and you will really grieve them if they fall on the battlefield. Well, all that to say that I really love snipers as they are ! Silvarius.



panzerfist -> (1/26/2001 10:10:00 PM)

read "war of the rats". very good sniper book. while i dont think that just because a sniper moves, he should be easily spotted. i would say that a snipers movement might be lessened due to the fact that he is moving more cautiously. this woud be fair. but still, i have had my sniper shoot numerous times and not come up with a kill.



Panzer Capta -> (2/1/2001 2:49:00 AM)

The concealment of a sniper should be a function of his frequency of fire and his concealing environment. In other words, the more he fires the better chance he has of being spotted. However, a sniper in wooded terrain should be exceedingly difficult to spot. In my opinion, an infantry unit should not be able to eliminate a sniper in wooded terrain beyond 2 to 3 hexes no matter how frequently he fires. A sniper in a multi-level building in an environment dominated by one-level buildings has selected a predictable location and should have a diminished "concealment factor". A sniper in a multi-level building in an environment with numerous multi-level building has made a better choice.



JTGEN -> (2/3/2001 9:22:00 PM)

To Tortfeasor I have no good links. I remember the sniper giving interwiew to TV a while back. He was injured in the chin and could not speak well. He was not injured when sniping but in the trench stopping an assault as they needed everybody there and could not keep him just sniping. If you find good links, let me know too. I would really like to know how the Soviets feeled about the 'kukushkas' or kuckoos as they called the snipers.



krull -> (2/4/2001 5:16:00 AM)

Well i spent almost 40 years as one. Snipers once the fire one AT most 2 shots its time to move. As for Not being able to hit them in a 3 hex area HAHAHA. I have a nice scar on my back from a regualr Marine In 1968 who thought i was charlie paying a vist. Dont underestimate a regular Joe. Some special unit and USMC types recieve extensive training in marksmanship. Thing I dislike about Spwaw snipers is there stupid. Why they hell woulda sniper be in an open field unless he had no choice. Also buildings are death traps. Unless it has an escape path. I wouldnt be seen in one and if i was i'd left as fast as a could. [img]http://208.185.88.171/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by krull (edited February 03, 2001).] [This message has been edited by krull (edited February 03, 2001).]



BruceAZ -> (2/4/2001 10:23:00 AM)

If you want die hard snipers and are near impossible to find, try a jungle scenario with Japanese snipers. They are pure hell... Bruce Semper Fi



Tortfeasor -> (2/4/2001 12:25:00 PM)

To JTGEN I have found som good sniper links, I shall send them soon to this thread. ps. one more word of you and you are a Veteran.



Tortfeasor -> (2/4/2001 4:14:00 PM)

About those Sniper links, here is a couple of links. http://guns.connect.fi/gow/hayha.html http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA2.html http://guns.connect.fi/gow/linx.html



Anomaly27 -> (2/5/2001 4:44:00 AM)

some links: another sniper list (some Germans and a whole bunch of Soviets) http://wio.newmail.ru/tank/sniper.htm an incomplete list of Soviet tank aces http://wio.newmail.ru/tank/ww2tank.htm



panzerfist -> (2/6/2001 12:02:00 PM)

so it seems we have established some things regarding snipers: they should be hard to spot in the trees; they should never be out in the open; and being in buildings is good, sometimes. so whats up matrix? is there some patch we can add that will make snipers a little more sniperish? seriously - i dont think snipers in buildings is too terrible of an idea. after all, werent snipers running around in both rubble and the forrest killing people? id like to see them as more of a tool and not just the lone guy running around trying to kill someone. i have read that snipers who shoot from the same place more than once often dig their graves there. but i have discovered that sometimes snipers are easier to spot than 12 men in a group. well - im done babbling about the snipers. please let us know if anything will change in upcoming versions of this game regarding them. thanks p/f



JTGEN -> (2/8/2001 12:57:00 AM)

Thanks tortfeasor. Interesting links. Probably should check the book from library.



RockinHarry -> (2/8/2001 9:58:00 PM)

Hello all just played some "sniper test" scenarios and noticed the following: 1. "Sniper sniping..." No matter what experience and cover, the sniper will be "sighted" by any good order infantry type unit at ranges of 4 hexes or less. (with line of sight of course) Green snipers - about 5,6 hexes. After detection, theyre easy kills. 2. "Sniper hiding.." (human player of course) In good cover (stone build., rough etc ) the sniper will be sighted if you almost "kick in the door". (2, better 1-0 Hexes) After detection, the sniper is an easy kill. 3. "AI Snipers" They seem to prefer sniping mostly in the op-fire phase, but not only and then at "enemy sighted" range. --- With good experience, cover -- 7-9 hexes. Then there seems to be a tendency "stop firing" range of about 6-4 hexes, if you dont close them with more than "cautious advance". (1 hex/turn ) And then, once sighted....easy kills. hm...Seems not too unrealistic to me, except for the "easy kills". (Veteran) Snipers shouldnt fire anymore at ranges of 4 or less and then withdraw! But tell this the "AI" !? As human player, you can keep this in mind and have your snipers survive a little longer. Their effects (kills) are quite ok, I guess. Ok... not much "news" here.... Any comments? ________________ RockinHarry



Arralen -> (2/11/2001 12:47:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by RockinHarry: just played some "sniper test" scenarios and noticed the following: ... Any comments?
Question: How did you test? Did you have C&C on and set them to "defense", or did you leave C&C off and just waited one turn do give them time to get into cover? Arralen



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