RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (Full Version)

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Chocolino -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/12/2012 6:57:00 PM)

Hello all,

thank you for the good comments.

Re surrendering too early: Not sure what reinforcements were expected for the USSR since I never played this even against the AI that far - but the USSR did not have any Infantry r&d upgrades coming and not even enough PPs to replace losses. I am pretty sure that Gary would have managed to finish this nicely.

Regarding Caen - yes - highly unsuccessful. Here is my thinking at the time (now we know it was incorrect of course): At the time I had the feeling that the USSR was about to fall (so far correct) and that the Germans couldn't care less if I opted for invading North Africa or Norway or any other fringe scenario. Much too slow. Until a threat was build up that way, the Russians would be done for. So I wanted to do something more directly threatening. It worked (haha) and I got attention from a lot of strong tank units. I think that saving those units would not have made a difference and that invading elsewhere would not have helped the USSR either. But then I admit that you have more experience.

I think my main mistakes happened earlier. But unfortunately I am not even now sure what they were. I have a good candidate list: (1) attacking Romania after German DOW, (2) not reinforcing Egypt early as the UK, (3) loosing and then not trying to retake Malta. I know Gary thinks (3) was key.

But be curious what you think.



cpdeyoung -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/12/2012 8:25:46 PM)

Certainly it is rough to lose after being beaten about like you were. However one does not have to make mistakes against Gary for him to win. With the best play someone is going to win, and losing to Gray is no dishonor. Then again losing to you is no dishonor either, and I speak from bitter experience.

If one can hold Malta it will be a great thorn in the side of the Axis forces in the Mediterranean, but if the Axis wants it badly enough they can beat you down. I, personally, have never seen a game where the Allies retook Malta until the Axis was crushed. The Allies are weaker than the Axis till the USA comes in, and until the Soviets are coming into their strength.

The AI is given huge WE advantages when playing against humans. You do not get this advantage in multi-player human games. The Germans are tough customers, and once they get on a roll you are in trouble.

As for the continuation for the Soviets I must agree that you were in big trouble. The loss of all those PP does not just hurt you, but hugely helps him. There is some arguments that production would not really go to the Axis when captured from the Soviets. However in the game it does, and this would have made the continuation an exercise in masochism.

Chuck



Razz1 -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/12/2012 9:48:06 PM)

You should try the Third Reich scenario with Gary... but wait until patch 1.02 then I will upgrade it again to fix a few bugs and added features.

Malta is heavily defended in the Third Reich. It's not as easy to take it. In fact it may have to be beefed up even more.

A player should loose two times and have the third wave capture it.

That would be expensive for the amphibious units and infantry lost.

Even if Malta is taken, the Allies can still supply from their Navy.

It's hard when you don't know what is coming up.
I certainly hope you were doing research.
Delaying action is important.
The loss of effectiveness has been changed from 1 % to 10% and rises quickly in the Third Reich.

With those strong Panzers, Germany doesn't need such an advantage.

At some point in time reinforcing units is not wise. They should be used as cannon fodder.
You lost allot of PP's doing that when the unit was going to be eliminated anyway.
Patch 1.02 will help tremendously as the convoys will be fixed so your losses are less.
In place of being broke you should have a few PP's for resistance.



gwgardner -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/12/2012 10:01:44 PM)

I have to say I'm quite giddy beating Chocolino this time, since I don't believe I ever did beat him before.



Chocolino -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/12/2012 10:18:37 PM)

Glad I could contribute to your good spirits this weekend....



battlevonwar -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/18/2012 10:44:17 AM)

I have really not gone into great detail watching this game but from personal experience thus far Malta has never been key in any of my games, on either side. The key with Egypt delaying Axis movements, restricting them I could see that.

Once Italy-Germany break through The Suez it's rape the Convoys and stab the Reds in the Belly, usual tactic. Turkey should not join so easily.(basically she should need boot in the face to join the Axis) Now this has played against me as the Axis but it was only when I was too weak to take the initiative and wasted my resources achieving my goals too late. Timing is key here.

Once the Germans rip through the front lines I stand by it, it's hard to prevent a Red Army collapse, even without the script events. Anyone that fought as hard as you did here deserves praise...

Allies are underdogs and no, I doubt that a dime of Russian resources would do a thing for the Germans. Maybe The Ukraine



gwgardner -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/18/2012 3:28:32 PM)

Taking Malta is huge for the Axis. Gone is any worry about convoys to Africa. No more loss of effectiveness and strength when a convoy is intercepted. Italian air is freed up, to be used more directly on the front lines for ground support. The Italian navy is freed from patrolling the Central Med and dodging air attacks from Malta.

Turkey did not join the Axis in our game. The Germans attacked it.

As for the value of Russian resources for the Germans - there are 40-50+ PPs in the Ukraine, 75+ in the Caucasus, 100+ east of Stalingrad. Major help to the German cause if they can be taken, major loss for the Soviets.



Chocolino -> RE: Fall Gelb - Corresponding Allied Perspective (5/18/2012 9:46:20 PM)

Agree - Malta is important. Of course not in itself - only as a key stepping stone to Egypt.

We often discussed why an Allied/French player would ever accept Vichy since saving civilians is not a parameter in ToF. But I think that your brilliant move via Turkey through Syria/Lebanon/Israel to fall into Egypt's back would not have been available if Vichy would have detoured you via Iraq. Vichy cannot be attacked by the Axis without successful coup. That may be a good reason in itself to accept Vichy.



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