OT-Upper Case in English? (Full Version)

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LoBaron -> OT-Upper Case in English? (2/24/2012 8:42:25 AM)

This is for the native English speakers out there.

What I remember from long gone past there are certain rules in English
where to use upper case at the beginning of a word.

IIRC this includes names (including sentences like "You are an American citizen"),
month/weekdays and compass headings like "East" or "South".

Is this correct? And am I missing some other word categories to which this rule applies as well?



Empire101 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/24/2012 10:48:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This is for the native English speakers out there.

What I remember from long gone past there are certain rules in English
where to use upper case at the beginning of a word.

IIRC this includes names (including sentences like "You are an American citizen"),
month/weekdays and compass headings like "East" or "South".

Is this correct? And am I missing some other word categories to which this rule applies as well?


You are quite right LoBaron.
But gone are the days when people respected each other enough to write correctly.
I can still remember my English master hitting me on the side of the head with a board rubber and shouting,
'Cole, remember in nearly every case, its i before e except after c.'

Happy days!![8|]





gradenko2k -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/24/2012 11:16:48 AM)

As a general rule:

* Capitalize (the first letter of) the first word of every new sentence
* Capitalize names, such as John Smith. In the age of the internet, you don't need to do this for usernames, as it's generally assumed that someone with an uncapitalized username, like "gradenko_2000", wrote it like that deliberately. Since your username is LoBaron, then I'd write yours the way you actually capitalized it.
* Capitalize initials of a name, such as FDR for Franklin Delano Roosevelt
* Related to names, capitalize brands, such as Pepsi or Levi's
* Capitalize place names, such as the Nile river, or Europe
* Capitalize points of the compass, such as North
* Capitalize adjectives when they refer to regions and nations/countries, such as Dutch planes or American troops. This usually applies to religions as well, such as Catholic priests
* Capitalize days and months, such as Friday, February 24
* Capitalizing titles can be tricky, but usually you capitalize everything except articles and prepositions, such as the Day of Infamy speech, or the Prince of Wales



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/24/2012 2:06:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This is for the native English speakers out there.

What I remember from long gone past there are certain rules in English
where to use upper case at the beginning of a word.

IIRC this includes names (including sentences like "You are an American citizen"),
month/weekdays and compass headings like "East" or "South".

Is this correct? And am I missing some other word categories to which this rule applies as well?


The replies you've gotten are correct so far as they go, but there's an easier method for this than trying to remember myriad classes of nouns needing capitalization.

The rule is almost all proper nouns are capitalized, and common nouns are not. For a very good discource on the difference, with excursions into how other languages do things differently (German!!!), see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_noun

From the intro:

"A proper noun or proper name is a noun representing a unique entity (such as London, Jupiter, John Hunter, or Toyota), as distinguished from a common noun, which represents a class of entities (or non-unique instance(s) of that class)—for example, city, planet, person or corporation. In English, proper nouns are not normally preceded by an article or other limiting modifier (such as any or some), and are used to denote a particular person, place, or object without regard to any descriptive meaning the word or phrase may have[2] (for example, a town called "Newtown" may be, but does not necessarily have to be, a new (recently built) town)."



Shark7 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/24/2012 2:13:06 PM)

And in the end, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Had you not brought it up, I'd never have guessed English isn't your primary language.

And despite being American you can count on it, I do not speak 'proper' English. I speak a regional dialect.



AW1Steve -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/24/2012 9:10:05 PM)

And since this forum frequently refers to people who are in the USMC , they are always referred to as a Marine. Failure to do that will generally result in them attempting to do you bodily harm. They are funny that way. And , BTW , you always refer to someone no longer serving as a "Former Marine". If you call them an "ex-marine" , they will try to kill you. Painfully. [8|]

I speak from experince on both examples, and include these notes as a public service announcement. [:D]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/24/2012 11:46:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

And since this forum frequently refers to people who are in the USMC , they are always referred to as a Marine. Failure to do that will generally result in them attempting to do you bodily harm. They are funny that way. And , BTW , you always refer to someone no longer serving as a "Former Marine". If you call them an "ex-marine" , they will try to kill you. Painfully. [8|]

I speak from experince on both examples, and include these notes as a public service announcement. [:D]


I always have written it Marine out of respect, even though that's technically incorrect. I also know to use "former", but I wouldn't capitalize it. I see that as an adjective, not a part of a title. I also always say I was in the Navy even though that is equally wrong. Knowing the rules and then artfully breaking them is a first step to being a good writer. Also having a copy of "The Chicago Manual of Style" (unless you're one of the heathen who subscribe to "The Associated Press Stylebook.") [:)]

Two cases I've seen which often tie people in knots are "the president" vs. "the President" (POTUS), and "the earth vs. the Earth." The second is a bit easier, but for some reason lots of professional writers and editors miss it. Just as they miss the difference between "the president" and "the President of the United States."

Or the pope.





Tiornu -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 1:53:04 AM)

Directions are capitalized only if referring to a specific place. I am driving south, but I have family that lives in the South.
In capitalizing titles, English is unusual. The first word is capitalized as are all subsequent nouns, verbs, adverbs and adjective (except the definite and indefinite articles); subtitles are handled in the same way. Prepositions are not capitalized, but that doesn't stop people from capitalizing the ones that are "big."
People's official titles are capitalized when serving as a person's name. So Lieutenant Smith assured us that the new lieutenant would be arriving soon. This can also apply to familial titles like "uncle" or "mom."
Note that if you look at writings from just a few decades back, you may find many other words capitalized.
I hate style books.



LoBaron -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 7:25:33 AM)

Guys, thank you very much. Interesting stuff. Especially for somebody who is no ex-marine... [sm=scared0018.gif]

I know why I post such questions here, the contributions are always a good read, and often provide beyond the original questions.
Steve, The Moose, concerning - please note the sympathetic uppercase - Marines, my impression was that you get harmed no matter what, independent of if
an insult was intentional or percieved, sometimes unrelated to any action on your side, sometimes because you again missed a
small subchapter in the "How to Coope with an Angry USMC Weapons Platform Looking for Trouble" manual.

Shark, thanks! But you can always improve on details, and I think there is a difference between obviousely not knowing specific rules or
deliberately ignoring them to leave a message. I think this is what The Moose referred to, and I agree with it. The interesting thing
to know is when you can break the rules for effect.

Tiournu, good extra details, what you wrote confirms what I "felt" how such stuff is used.



Apollo11 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 7:32:35 AM)

Hi all,

As a side note many years ago I searched for WinWord dictionary or add-on that would properly "Upper Case" the English titles (of the articles, books etc.)... as far as I know this is still not available...


Leo "Apollo11"



Joe D. -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 2:37:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

... Is this correct? And am I missing some other word categories to which this rule applies as well?


Ironic that the AP Stylebook advises to avoid unnecessary capitals, unless you can justify it by the above posted principles, i.e., lowercase the common nouns of plural names: Main and State streets, lakes Erie and Ontario.

Of course, you should capitalize words derived from proper nouns, i.e., Shakespearean, but when it comes to poetry vs. prose, "poetic license" often prevails.




Tiornu -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 6:50:10 PM)

Don't make me get all e e cummings on you.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 7:24:36 PM)

This brings up an interesting question. Out of respect, I have taken to capitalizing historically appropriate ethnic, national origin and racial slurs when reporting in an AAR. For eg., "LYB", "JJ" and "Shinto Boy" Is this correct? Should it properly be "Shinto boy"?


Come to think of it, should "AAR" be capitalized? What about "CAP", "LRCAP", "FOW", "AV", "JFB"?

Now that we are on the subject, why is the second "B" captialized in "BB". Come to think of it, why is the first "B" capitalized unless it is Battleship Potemkin or something like that?



HMSWarspite -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 8:31:29 PM)

Abbreviations are capitalised in English, even if the original phrase would not be. If I were being excessively correct (explaining abbreviations on first use etc.), I would write something like:

'Wing Commander Smith set up a combat air patrol (CAP) 30 miles northeast of Singapore. The CAP was found to be ineffective in that location, since the Japanese tended to approach from the NW. Thus on subsequent days the CAP was moved 20 miles W.'

I think the rule is used to differentiate between abbreviations and real words (CAP and cap for example).
Now, I might be wrong, eccentric, or both, but I am a native English speaker, and no one tends to correct me. Then again, as was said earlier, grammar teaching is a dying art in the UK these days.



Tiornu -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 8:43:46 PM)

USN terms like BB for battleship, CV for aircraft carrier, etc. are not abbreviations in the usual sense. They are simply designations, and they are capitalized because that is how the USN designated its ships. Some folks will try to get uber-technical with you and insist that a ship's name should be written in ALL CAPS because official documents format them that way.



LoBaron -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 9:42:40 PM)

And I always thought the second b in BB is uppercase for aesthetical reasons...



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/25/2012 11:47:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

And I always thought the second b in BB is uppercase for aesthetical reasons...


I have read opinions on both sides of the issue, but some maintain this was done at the time (pre-WWI?) to account for garbles in Morse code speed-key messages. If one "B" was lost the other might make it through. That works for DDs, SSes, and battlewagons, but breaks down with cruisers and carriers. A "C" and a lost second letter might mean some sort of cruiser, but it could also be some type of carrier. And the system really broke down with CVEs and the amphibs in WWII and later. Today there is a mish-mash. Fast attacks were originally SS(N) when the sub fleet was still mostly D/Es, but now it's SSN. There are actually more exceptions now to the original rules than ships which follow them.



Joe D. -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 2:27:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

... I think the rule is used to differentiate between abbreviations and real words (CAP and cap for example).
Now, I might be wrong, eccentric, or both, but I am a native English speaker, and no one tends to correct me. Then again, as was said earlier, grammar teaching is a dying art in the UK these days.


Grammar died here in the "colonies" long ago, but are acronyms -- lower case constructs using the first letter of each successive part -- abbreviations, or real words too?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 2:37:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


Grammar died here in the "colonies" long ago, but are acronyms -- lower case constructs using the first letter of each successive part -- abbreviations, or real words too?


I would class acronyms differently than abbreviations. For one, there are multiple inconsistent abbreviations for many words (sys. and syst. for example, or rt. and rte.) Acronyms may be used in formal writing after being defined once, while abbreviations generally are not acceptable. Many government acronyms, the dreaded three-letters, are so common that most folks don't know the base. "CDC" springs to mind. I'd guess that only about a quarter of the population could tell you the organization's real name.

Edit--I see you defined yours as lower case. Oops on me. Can you give examples?



Roger Neilson II -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 2:53:03 PM)

Capitalisation in English is a pedants dream...... and quite a modern device. If you drop back to pre Victorian times you'd find people capitalising wherever they fancied, and inDeed in the miDDle of words as they Faw sit. They also capitalised to be EMPHATIC. There were no rules at first, so anyone who claims the rules are there is referring to common usage......

And don't even think about the f as an s which you will often get in earlier script material.

Roger



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 3:03:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

If you drop back to pre Victorian times you'd find people capitalising wherever they fancied, and inDeed in the miDDle of words as they Faw sit. They also capitalised to be EMPHATIC.



Many Americans see this annually when they peruse the Declaration of Independence. [:)]



Alfred -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 3:03:31 PM)

Not to mention the totally voluntary spelling codes of Shakespeare.

Alfred



Roger Neilson II -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 3:06:18 PM)

Shakspear never let a good plot be ruined by having to look up wurdz...... and he made them up if he didn't have enuff handy.


Roger



Canoerebel -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 3:22:35 PM)

A few other things along these lines:

1.  Internet is capitalized (this was agreed upon after a lengthy debate).

2.  I don't believe that compass directions are capitalized when used as a direction. For instance, it would be correct to say:  "The birds flew south for winter."  However, those same words would be capitalized when referring to a place:  North Dakota; North versus South; South Georgia farmer; etc.



RevRick -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 3:24:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

Shakspear never let a good plot be ruined by having to look up wurdz...... and he made them up if he didn't have enuff handy.


Roger



Roger, Roger. Rick!



geofflambert -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 3:37:37 PM)

Back on compass points:  Capitalize them when abbreviated i.e. NNE, when a title themselves ("North vs. South" as above or "Western Thought") or when they modify another capitalized word or title i.e. "Army Group South"  "Southern Philipines".



Joe D. -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 4:23:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... I see you defined yours as lower case. Oops on me. Can you give examples?


"radar," although I forget what words the letters stand for.



Empire101 -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 4:38:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... I see you defined yours as lower case. Oops on me. Can you give examples?


"radar," although I forget what words the letters stand for.


The term RADAR was coined in 1941 by the United States Navy as an acronym for radio detection and ranging



Joe D. -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 4:43:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... I see you defined yours as lower case. Oops on me. Can you give examples?


"radar," although I forget what words the letters stand for.


The term RADAR was coined in 1941 by the United States Navy as an acronym for radio detection and ranging


OK, but according to the AP Stylebook, it's a lowercase acronym, which suggests there are also uppercase acronyms.

CAP?



geofflambert -> RE: OT-Upper Case in English? (2/27/2012 4:53:52 PM)

I believe it's lower case because of it's general usage, and that's because most people think it's a regular word (also see "laser") with an etymology and whatnot.  Most acronyms are all caps.



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