RE: Turn 16 Russian moves

RE: Turn 16 Russian moves (Full Version)

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CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Turn 16 Russian moves (2/27/2012 2:48:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Hi all, Did AI ever tried / attempted encirclement in this game? Leo "Apollo11" It tried, but I was able to establish double- or triple-lines very soon, which made it tough going. I'll rummage around in my save-games and see if I can find you some examples. Might take a while though, since my vacation ends today. [8D] But I think there's something wrong with the AI logic re. the Finns suicidal attacks. The occasional low-odds attack would be fine, but this is ludicrous. [:D]

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 17 (2/28/2012 2:34:49 PM)
[image]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/6770/turn17001.jpg[/image] WHACK! [:D] I do believe further comments are unnecessary. [image]http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7903/turn17002.jpg[/image] AI is still trying to get around Ilmen, but the terrain (and the Russians for that matter) are against them. A one-hex wide advance is actually to my benefit, since they'll get murdered during the blizzard. Assuming of course that they stick around that long..... No matter, I'll dig in behind the river. If the AI decides to head NE, there's nothing but trees up there anyway. [image]http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/346/turn17003.jpg[/image] More pressure exerted by AGC. But if these are the kind of forces he needs to use to vacate a hex, it's a long way to Moscow. Does anyone have an idea how my modified CV dropped THAT low? [image]http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/856/turn17004.jpg[/image] AGS seems to have found their ball.....er, courage [:)] It looks like bloody murder, but most of these are hasty attacks --> retreats, so the casualties are fairly low. And I have no problem giving up more ground. Every city within miles have already been emptied of industry.

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 17 Russian moves (2/28/2012 2:46:44 PM)
[image]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5430/turn17russian.jpg[/image] Whole lot of nothing, really. The STAVKA forces around Novgorod gets their own personal Army HQ (10th Army), just in case the AI decides to get uppity. [:)] Otherwise there's a fatigue-shuffle going along the line. Also, the incoming armor-brigades are starting to get assigned on Army level. Each army getting two, and in return they give their highest Exp. division back to STAVKA. Plan is to have 2 (maybe 3) armies with Exp. in the high 40's for the Blizzard. All the infantry brigades gets parked a good ways back, and are set to 50% TOE. Can't imagine I'll find a use for them aside from combining them in ´42.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Turn 17 Russian moves (2/28/2012 8:44:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane All the infantry brigades gets parked a good ways back, and are set to 50% TOE. Can't imagine I'll find a use for them aside from combining them in ´42. Forget the concept of digging rifle brigades. a) Forts are built slowly, b) construcion value of such brigades is really lousy and finally c) building forts during bad weather is reaaaaaaally sloooooow. If you don't plan to use them as cannon fodder and send them to the rear make sure they are a) minimum 10 hexes away from enemy units and b) on refit mode. This way they will gain morale MUCH faster (confirmed). Then when you combine them to form rifle divisions the morale of the new units should be quite high. Don't forget to adjust the maximum TOE to let's say 50%. This way they will NOT suck manpower, materiel. They have to train, not fill up the ranks [:)] Cheers

CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Turn 17 Russian moves (2/29/2012 3:25:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus quote: ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane All the infantry brigades gets parked a good ways back, and are set to 50% TOE. Can't imagine I'll find a use for them aside from combining them in ´42. Forget the concept of digging rifle brigades. a) Forts are built slowly, b) construcion value of such brigades is really lousy and finally c) building forts during bad weather is reaaaaaaally sloooooow. If you don't plan to use them as cannon fodder and send them to the rear make sure they are a) minimum 10 hexes away from enemy units and b) on refit mode. This way they will gain morale MUCH faster (confirmed). Then when you combine them to form rifle divisions the morale of the new units should be quite high. Don't forget to adjust the maximum TOE to let's say 50%. This way they will NOT suck manpower, materiel. They have to train, not fill up the ranks [:)] Cheers So I've found out. You'd think that just because it's a brigade they'd still be able to pick up a damn shovel. [:D] But instead of merely having them train in the rear for the next 8 months, I'm considering moving them up once the blizzard hits. They're not going to do any fighting, just move into the vacated fort-lines to stop them from decaying, while the REAL army advances. Had this been a human opponent I'd leave them to training, but at this point I seriously doubt I'll be needing them.......(famous last words).

Apollo11 -> RE: Turn 8 (3/2/2012 8:33:17 AM)
Hi all, Do you have savegames (preferably auto generated savegames for AI Axis turns) when Finns started to attack against the odds? Leo "Apollo11"

CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Turn 8 (3/2/2012 3:03:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Hi all, Do you have savegames (preferably auto generated savegames for AI Axis turns) when Finns started to attack against the odds? Leo "Apollo11" That I can do. They started on Turn 8, though the odds were fairly even in the beginning (1:2.7, 1:3.4 that sort of thing). Around turn 11 and onwards it got just plain silly 1:200 and upwards. Odd thing is that if I remember correctly they kept sending the same lone division in even though otehr forces were readily available. However, I'm too lazy to multi-post to avoid the 5 Meg limit on attachments, so I RAR'ed turns 8-16 Axis Auto-saves, and uploaded to Mediafire instead: http://www.mediafire.com/?85pwzaj9ebvkvh4

Apollo11 -> RE: Turn 8 (3/3/2012 6:11:34 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Do you have savegames (preferably auto generated savegames for AI Axis turns) when Finns started to attack against the odds? That I can do. They started on Turn 8, though the odds were fairly even in the beginning (1:2.7, 1:3.4 that sort of thing). Around turn 11 and onwards it got just plain silly 1:200 and upwards. Odd thing is that if I remember correctly they kept sending the same lone division in even though otehr forces were readily available. However, I'm too lazy to multi-post to avoid the 5 Meg limit on attachments, so I RAR'ed turns 8-16 Axis Auto-saves, and uploaded to Mediafire instead: http://www.mediafire.com/?85pwzaj9ebvkvh4 Thanks! Leo "Apollo11"

CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Turn 8 (3/4/2012 5:33:29 PM)
Turns 18-21: Dear Diary, It rained today. [:)] Zero action during the mud, aside from a few attacks against single armored brigades. Russians kept cycling units on the frontline, and building reserve armies in the rear. At present there are 5 complete armies (1 experienced, the rest training) just waiting for the snow to fall. Turn 22: [image]http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1337/turn22001.jpg[/image] Leningrad is silent. I doubt anything will happen up here for the next looong while. If the AI is silent, I will be as well. Far better places to use the troops, and the Luga is almost tailor-made as a fort-line. [image]http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4460/turn22002.jpg[/image] Last gasp of AGC. As usual, I can't hold them when they concentrate, but neither can he manage a complete breakthrough. I imagine I'll have to fall back a few hexes before the blizzard hits. All dependant on whether the AI starts to pull back in preparation for the winter. [image]http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2764/turn22003.jpg[/image] Basically the same thing in the AGS area. Plenty of attacks, most of them successful but I can easily drop back a hex every turn and suffer no ill effects. I briefly toyed with the idea of simply pulling back out of my forts, to see if I could 'lure' the AI forward into open terrain, and then proceed to murder them during the blizzard. I would've against a human opponent just to see if he fell for it, but I'd assume the AI is programmed to attack during '41, and the way I see it, the poor program is in enough trouble as is. [:D] I won't be posting a complete front until the start of the blizzard unless something completely unexpected happens. Suffice it to say that for the next 4 turns I'll fall back where necessary to contain any attacks, and otherwise prepare my offensive in December.

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 23 (3/8/2012 8:36:37 PM)
[image]http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4940/turn23001.jpg[/image] So.....Not only are the Finns suicidal, they're apparently suicidal screaming pansies. [:D] After 3 months of attacking concrete bunkers with reindeer-antlers, they've scampered...WTF? Anybody know what the Finnish term for 'Sir Robin' is? [X(] [image]http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/212/turn23002.jpg[/image] To their credit, AGC is still trying. But they simply don't have the moxie required to get through. [image]http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2072/turn23003.jpg[/image] Further south everybody seems to have gone home for supper..... Either that, or the AI is setting up defensive lines for the blizzard. But that's a whole lot of nothing holding the front..... [image]http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2416/turn23004.jpg[/image] AGS still hammers away, but again absolutely no threat to anything important. I may have to give up Kirovograd, but I'm loath to give the German tanks a frontline town in which to linger in reserve-mode.....

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 24 (3/8/2012 9:59:17 PM)
Absolutely nothing. Not a single attack from the AI, nor that much movement. Full front pre-russian move: [image]http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8228/turn24full.jpg[/image] I sent an additional army to the far north to see if I can't annoy the Finns a little. Probably won't get very far, but you never know.....Besides, I have troops to spare. [:D] Looks like the AI has decided these are the winter-lines, and have started to dig in. There'll be very little happening around Leningrad, too well dug in.....Well, except Novgorod. That will definitely become Russian again. If I can trap some armor up there as well, so much the better. But from previous experience, the AI is pretty good at giving up ground to avoid getting pocketed. Otherwise, I intend to attack along the entire line. Just squeeze everywhere until something pops. And of course, any part of the front manned by Romanians/Hungarians will become an instant munitions-magnet. In the south I have some 13 Cavalry Corps ready to be formed in December, each going to receive 2 Tank Battalions and a MC Regiment for use as an exploitation force if given the chance. Not to mention there's now 8 armies in reserve ready for deployment. Now, Blizzard please......This ought to be fun. [8D]

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 25 (3/10/2012 3:23:46 AM)
[image]http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7857/turn25z.jpg[/image] As previously stated, pressure is applied all over the front. Some 90+ attacks are launched with 23 Held. In the far north, the Finns have returned in strength, so I plan to build 3 FZs in the recently vacated hexes, and hold a line just in front until they've built up. I don't expect huge progress in the Leningrad area. Still going to try for Novgorod, but with all the motorized/armor units up there I doubt it'll happen. Ah well, I'll be pushing on either side of Ilmen to see if I can't stretch the line a bit. Nor do I expect miracles against AGC. I'll push forward, and with a little luck manage to pocket a few divisions, but it'll be attrition more than anything else. In the south it's a completely different story. The line is manned by Italians, Romanians and Hungarians and these should be chewed up pretty soon. 9 newly formed Cavalry Corps have taken up positions to exploit the gaps that are bound to open down here. Even with German units in Reserve, there's no way this line will hold. Main objective here is to kill off some of these Axis Minor units since they don't respawn. Killing counters means the AI will have to use precious German infantry divisions to hold the line come spring. EDIT: Renamed post to proper Turn number

RangerX3X -> RE: Turn 16 Russian moves (3/10/2012 3:44:04 AM)
My God this game is intimidating.

vicberg -> RE: Turn 16 Russian moves (3/10/2012 3:47:29 AM)
Ya, but the real question is how you got the entire friken map displayed? That's an accomplishment on par with your broad offensive.

CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Turn 16 Russian moves (3/10/2012 4:09:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vicberg Ya, but the real question is how you got the entire friken map displayed? That's an accomplishment on par with your broad offensive. Fairly easy to do. Take successive screen-shots, and splice them together with GIMP. ( http://www.gimp.org )

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 26 (3/10/2012 4:42:30 AM)
Pic after Russian moves: [image]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1739/turn26.jpg[/image] Things are going as planned...... Well, mostly. AI is using armor in Reserve to blunt some of my attacks, and it's starting to annoy me. [:D] Nevertheless, this also means that the panzers will be anaemic come spring, so it's a trade-off I suppose. All in all, some 73 attacks are launched with 13 Held and a couple of outright Routs. And once again, the poor Romanians are getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop. Not to mention that all along the front the first divisions are starting to get pocketed.

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 27 (3/10/2012 4:58:19 AM)
Oooops....... Erm....The southern front collapsed, and I got so excited I forgot to take a screenie. [8\|] So, instead something I don't normally do, OOB, losses and pools at the start of Turn 27: [image]http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/348/turn27.jpg[/image] Apologies for the somewhat haphazard presentation. Haven't really figured out how to do the layout yet.

randallw -> RE: Turn 27 (3/10/2012 7:52:54 AM)
The more Romanian divisions you kill, the less will be able to join you once they surrender....not that it will be soon.

Apollo11 -> RE: Turn 26 (3/10/2012 9:36:17 AM)
Hi all, I have seen plenty of AI games (in hundreds - most of those AI vs. AI in various settings) but I have never seen AI doing so strange at 110% vs. 100% Human... Can you please post some savegames? Leo "Apollo11"

CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Turn 26 (3/10/2012 12:51:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Can you please post some savegames? Leo "Apollo11" Can do. I went on the assumption that you want the Axis Auto-saves as previously. Same deal as before, Turns 17-30 RAR'ed and uploaded to Mediafire http://www.mediafire.com/?g80x3z33et0i761 Anything else you need, let me know.

CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Turn 27 (3/10/2012 1:01:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: randallw The more Romanian divisions you kill, the less will be able to join you once they surrender....not that it will be soon. There's that, I suppose. But it is perhaps a little too early to plan for that eventuality. [:D] Right now I'd rather deplete them and force the AI to find other units to man the front. Besides, 7+ Million men, with another 300K in the pool......It's not as if I'm short on manpower these days. Armaments yes, but not manpower.

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 28 (3/10/2012 1:35:46 PM)
Frontline after Russian moves. (Insert: Destroyed units) [image]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3568/turn28.jpg[/image] Still some intensely busy turns. 70+ attacks, with 14 Held, 4 Surrendered, 50 Retreats and 9 Routed Up north there's still progress, but a combination of armor-reserves, marshes and entrenchments means I can clear 1-2 hexes each turn, taking serious losses in the process. I'll grab Novgorod during February, and after that I'll dig in, and withdraw the surplus forces up there. Once we get south of Smolensk, it's a different picture altogether. Between Smolensk and Kiev there's a controlled retreat, with armor-reserves making life difficult for the Heroes of the Soviet Union. We do advance, and the occasional division gets pocketed, but for real progress we need to look south of Kiev. The southern front collapsed completely last turn, and the Cavalry Corps have started earning their pay. I've lost some army-cohesion as the units are simply pushing as hard as they can, sneaking through every hole they can find. There's a handful of divisions trapped against the Black Sea, as cavalry swung around to cut the link to Odessa. Odessa itself will fall next turn, but the problem is the trapped divisions. There's a bloody port in the area. [:@] So the trick becomes to apply just enough pressure to retreat them out of the hex, without letting them rout out of the pocket in the process....... However, I can't complain......Really. [:D] Biggest problem I have in the south is the forced pace of combat and advance. My boys are starting to drag their feet as the fatigue is slowly climbing into the 70's... If I can keep the front fluid I'll see if I can't nip behind some of these panzers with the cavalry. Otherwise, as the First Winter effect starts to fizzle out, it'll be time to reorganize the line, and get the Volkhov Front into order as well.

Apollo11 -> RE: Turn 26 (3/10/2012 6:50:54 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Can you please post some savegames? Can do. I went on the assumption that you want the Axis Auto-saves as previously. Same deal as before, Turns 17-30 RAR'ed and uploaded to Mediafire http://www.mediafire.com/?g80x3z33et0i761 Anything else you need, let me know. Thanks! Leo "Apollo11"

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 29 (3/10/2012 6:57:36 PM)
Front after Russian moves: [image]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1436/turn29.jpg[/image] I decided not to post anything from the north. There's sod-all happening up there anyway. [:)] Novgorod fell, and from now on I'll simply dig in, and withdraw the reserve armies for other uses. Unless of course the AI decides to strip the area of mobile forces to help in the south...... Hey, I can dream, can't I? [:D] As usual the German situation is deteriorating as we progress south. All along the line I keep in contact with as many mobile forces as I can, preferably ZOC-locking them forcing the AI to withdraw. In the center I don't really have the strength for a full-scale push, but I can keep the line scrambled enough to advance without too much fighting. Deep south is a bleeding ulcer for the Axis. The poor Romanians have by now lost 200k men (or roughly 33% of their total strength) in just 5 weeks of fighting. And their troubles are far from over. Odessa falls, and the last port is removed from the pocket. A Romanian brigade managed to rout out though. [:@] But the line (if you can call it that) is by now so full of holes that there's a concerted effort by 3 cavalry corps to advance behind the panzer-groups that have been annoying me so much. Probably won't make it, but this is too big an opportunity not to attempt it. But man, the poor foot-sloggers are TIRED! EDIT: Corrected post-title again......C'mon Lars, FIRST think THEN post! [8\|]

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 30 (3/10/2012 8:59:45 PM)
Front after Russian moves: [image]http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2597/turn30.jpg[/image] Action (and hence the screenie) moves further south. Up north digging has started. Around Vyazma there's 2-3 Inf divisions pocketed, but after they surrender the line will stay where it is. Enemy strength is increasing, and further advances simply isn't worth the price. In the south further pockets are created as the front continues to crumble. There's a delicious one containing both Pz and Mot divisions, but I'll go out on a limb here and say the AI will do something about relieving them. [:D] The cavalry failed to catch the panzers as I had assumed. Horses are nice, but horse-power is still better, snow or not. OTOH it means further retreats, further disruption due to the blizzard, and while I can't attack the panzer-groups directly, they have no chance of flank-support with Romanians and Italians around them. So once more the cavalry will hitch up their boots (and horse-shoes) and we'll try to reach further yet. Not sure how far it'll go though......The lads are bone-tired, and the RR heads are getting distant.

CheerfullyInsane -> Turn 33 and the end of AAR (3/22/2012 4:15:30 AM)
So I haven't been posting in a while. Mostly because other stuff have taken my gaming time, be it H2H games or the new stuff I bought for my flight-sim. The game has been progressing though, and briefly described the AI never managed to stabilize the southern front, despite pulling every mobile unit available into the area. It became a beast that couldn't be fed, since every time the AI managed to open a pocket, it left further units vulnerable for subsequent pocketing. This in turn drew further units in to relieve those, and so on and so forth. So at the start of Turn 33, I had this pocket established: [image]http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/6130/theendi.jpg[/image] This pocket contains the following: 2 SS Mot Brigade 16th Mot Division 1st Rum Armored Division 4th Rum. Mountain Brigade 10th Mot Division 3rd Panzer 10th Panzer 20th Panzer 6th Panzer 8th Panzer 17th Panzer 97th Jager Division 294th Inf Division 62nd Inf Division 14th Italian Inf Division And though they resisted bravely, and despite inflicting heavy losses on my fatigued units, in the end they succumbed. So now the final tally of destroyed units during the blizzard looks like this: [image]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8172/destroyedw.jpg[/image] 10 Panzer, 4 Motorized and 22 Infantry divisions obliterated, and this is NOT counting the Axis Minors. So while my position is kinda precarious with armies intermingled and very few fortifications, my eastern-most units are now 80 miles from the Romanian border, and I see absolutely no way the AI will be able to launch anything even remotely resembling a summer offensive. So I can pull 8-10 armies back behind the lines, let them train and convert to Corps during the summer, and be in Berlin by Early '43......But honestly I can't be bothered. [:D] Had this been a H2H game, I'm pretty sure my opponent would have asked for a restart. As for whether the AI is a decent opponent I'll still say it is. 110%-100% is too low for my level, which is why this game resulted in a blow-out, but I still couldn't just go through the motions. So if nothing else, it's a good training device. It is however still an AI, meaning it lacks long-term planning skills, and the ability for multi-thread analysis. And as most other AIs it is better at attritional warfare than deep penetrations, so even if it has been massively improved in 1.06, the '41 Axis is still the weakest of the bunch. It tries, but as this AAR showed (at least occasionally) it knows how to make the holes, but is less adept at exploiting them, preferring to use attacks instead of maneuver. Apollo, if you want the final 3 saves, send me a PM.

janh -> RE: Turn 33 and the end of AAR (3/22/2012 11:02:03 AM)
Nice game, thanks for doing the AAR. Seems that against AI, and using tactics harming its already lesser ability to plan and commit encirclements, the Soviet units in 41 can actually hold up quite a bit. It may give a more interesting game, though, if you don't setup up depth with your defensive lines in 41 and/or 42 to help AI a bit with encircling? Seems like even a human Soviet player can't truly push back AI until blizzard, but at least can stall it somewhat. Just last night I reached the July 41 chapter in the official records of the OKW, the "Tagebuch der Wehrmacht". There is permanent mention of Russian counterattacks, sometimes support by tanks, at other by artillery concentrations, against the forward German formations, like PzGrp 3 and 4 while holding the outer Bialystok and Minsk pockets, later against their bridgeheads over Dnepr and Dvina (Mogilew, Vitebesk, Orscha, Rogateschev etc.) on their strike against Smolensk (for which, interestingly, they had been put under command of AOK 4, and 4. Army detached its infantry corps to AOK 9.). Similary all of June and early July AGS and Pzgr 1 faced heavy counterattacks and delaying attacks, to a degree that OKW ordered 1 Pz, 1 Mot and 8 InfD from reserves as well as more than 10 heavy artillery detachments from AGC to be deployed to AGS AO. Also PzGr 4 and AGN reported heavy, organized resistance and counterattacks, again particularly against bridgeheads, which the Russians attempted to crush by pure numbers. This kind of aspect still feels missing in the 1941 part. Neither the crucial aspect of bridgeheads, river-crossing which could be too cheap in terms of MP, allowing to advance further too easily, nor the aspect of strong Soviet counterattacks. Seems even for a human player, the latter is more futile than it perhaps ought to be? Also, seeing how you handled the Germans in blizzard, it would seem to me that the blizzard penalties are too severe, at the very least the December 41 parameters. Seems like the restrictions on supply movement and the attrition in the open already do a lot to harm AI fighting power, so perhaps lesser reducing multipliers would be better? I think that at least against German AI, the letter should not be punished that badly in 1st blizzard...

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