Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (Full Version)

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fbs -> Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/26/2012 6:58:44 PM)

Imho, the automated system for allocation of support units is too cumbersome, because you can only specify a global support level for your HQ: you can't tailor to how you want it. So if I want more AA units for one army and more AT units for another army, there's no help from automatic transfers.

So you need to use the manual transfers to set what you want - that's not perfect but that's fine, except for the cost of doing it. And once you create the units you want, you can't unlock the support level in your HQ, otherwise your newly built support units will move elsewhere; therefore, once you start doing manual allocations, there's no way back to automatic.

Now, I don't pay to move air groups around, so why should I pay to move support units? If I'm going at length to work my way around a system I don't like (the automated system), and pay up in my time and effort to assign the units the way I want, why should I also pay in administration points? The way it is, it's like I'm paying three times (time + effort + administration points) to cover for something that should have been more flexible from the beginning.

I'm not arguing to revamp the automated system. I just argue that, as the automated system sucks, I shouldn't have to pay to not use it. Just make the transfers of support units to be free, and everybody will be happy, please.

Thank you.



Flaviusx -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/26/2012 7:48:25 PM)

I would love this. This is one my pet peeves as well. Not gonna happen though.

Then there's the related silliness of the OKH/STAVKA roadshow, where you rail the damned thing all over the map just to get a free SU transfer.

Another AP pet peeve: HQ reassignment costs are grotesquely high. People hardly ever do them as a result.



Bobswanson53 -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/26/2012 8:25:36 PM)

I agree with you. Im currently playing a solo game with AP level set at max(400) partly to compensate. Let us micro manage if we want.



marcpennington -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/26/2012 10:29:39 PM)

I agree as well too. One option would be to only allow free reassignment for the German side to reflect the extreme flexibility of German force structure in setting up kampfgruppen and such. Further, in game terms, perhaps this could be seen as a balance to the Soviet ability to create SUs.




glvaca -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/27/2012 10:12:47 AM)

+1x a million
The current AP system actually promotes ahistorical play, which is not what you want in a game like this.
Alternatively, make HQ re-attachments free within Armies (German), Fronts (Soviets), thrid price within Army groups, half price price for the rest.
Free SU re-attachments. It's so silly railing OKH & Stavka around for this...



Mehring -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/27/2012 11:04:16 AM)

+1 and a more cumbersome manual system for SU transfers could not have been invented.



vinnie71 -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/27/2012 3:20:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

I agree as well too. One option would be to only allow free reassignment for the German side to reflect the extreme flexibility of German force structure in setting up kampfgruppes and such. Further, in game terms, perhaps this could be seen as a balance to the Soviet ability to create SUs.




not a bad idea. After all that would really make a small but real contribution to the Axis. Of Course I would also like to have the axis minor allies to have at least 1 SU attachment but......

Maybe the army HQ reassignment/changes could be toned down and even the reassinment of some generals who could cost you something like 2 HQ buildups of 8 fortifications which is a bit absurd...



delatbabel -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 1:50:05 AM)

+1



gradenko2k -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 2:38:44 AM)

Personally, even just a more GUI-based method of allocating support units (and HHQs) would go a long way towards making this aspect of the game better.



jaw -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 1:04:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs

Imho, the automated system for allocation of support units is too cumbersome, because you can only specify a global support level for your HQ: you can't tailor to how you want it. So if I want more AA units for one army and more AT units for another army, there's no help from automatic transfers.

So you need to use the manual transfers to set what you want - that's not perfect but that's fine, except for the cost of doing it. And once you create the units you want, you can't unlock the support level in your HQ, otherwise your newly built support units will move elsewhere; therefore, once you start doing manual allocations, there's no way back to automatic.

Now, I don't pay to move air groups around, so why should I pay to move support units? If I'm going at length to work my way around a system I don't like (the automated system), and pay up in my time and effort to assign the units the way I want, why should I also pay in administration points? The way it is, it's like I'm paying three times (time + effort + administration points) to cover for something that should have been more flexible from the beginning.

I'm not arguing to revamp the automated system. I just argue that, as the automated system sucks, I shouldn't have to pay to not use it. Just make the transfers of support units to be free, and everybody will be happy, please.

Thank you.


You can transer a support unit from OKH in Konigsberg to an HQ in Krasnodar in a single week for the cost of a single AP. The cost is an abstraction of the time it takes to move the unit from wherever it is located to its new assignment. We could have put the support units on the map and forced you to move them around like any other unit. Think of the fun that would have been. [:@]



fbs -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 4:44:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw
You can transer a support unit from OKH in Konigsberg to an HQ in Krasnodar in a single week for the cost of a single AP. The cost is an abstraction of the time it takes to move the unit from wherever it is located to its new assignment. We could have put the support units on the map and forced you to move them around like any other unit. Think of the fun that would have been. [:@]



To be honest, it would be awesome having support units on the map - although I understand this would be overwhelming for many people so I'm probably alone in loving that.

But my point is this: these units can move around automatically with no cost, even if they are moving from Siberia to Murmansk. But the way to control automatic movement sucks, therefore we need to use manual movements.

Now, I don't want to use manual movement because I love it, but because automatic move is arbitrary and sucks. So why should I pay adm points (plus my time) to cover for a deficiency in the automated procedure?

Also, it doesn't make sense that air units can transfer all over the map with no cost, but support units cost.



jaw -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 6:57:00 PM)

You won't get an argument from me that the automated system of moving support units leaves something to be desired. I used it in a recent game as the Soviet player and could not get things allocated the way I wanted to save my life.[&:]

The automated system is not the same thing as the manual system without AP costs. The automated system is merely trying to satisfiy the level set at each HQ irrespective of what the actual battlefield needs are. The system assumes the level corresponds to the battlefield situation in an abstract sense. If you set an HQ's level at 1, the system will try to provide one of every type of unit it can even if all you wanted was one artillery unit with that HQ.

By contrast, the manual system allows you to control not only the number of a type of support unit assigned to an HQ, but what actual types are assigned and even the particular support unit itself. Want that Tiger battalion to go to the SS Panzer Corps? You can do that with the manual system, you can't with the automated. The combination of such micro-management ability and the theoretical unlimited range you can transfer unit comes at the small price of a single AP for each unit. Sounds like a bargain in my book.



LiquidSky -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 7:33:31 PM)



What I do is use the automated system to get all the support units up to OKH. Then I can freely assign them down to the units I want for free and lock them down.



Truppenstab -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 7:46:28 PM)

Please yes I would like cost removed, as the der Wehrmacht Supreme High Command was very flexible and efficient in allocation of these units.



Flaviusx -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 9:15:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



What I do is use the automated system to get all the support units up to OKH. Then I can freely assign them down to the units I want for free and lock them down.


More or less the same thing happens on the Soviet side.

As a practical matter experienced players are completely bypassing the AP costs associated with SU transfers. It's just a huge pain in the ass to do so and a lot of busywork. My own view is that we might as well cut out the middleman here.



fbs -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 9:45:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
More or less the same thing happens on the Soviet side.

As a practical matter experienced players are completely bypassing the AP costs associated with SU transfers. It's just a huge pain in the ass to do so and a lot of busywork. My own view is that we might as well cut out the middleman here.




Exactly.

Setting support level 0, etc..., avoids the admin costs is, as you said, a huge pain in the rear armor - and then you need to move Stavka all around to do it.



marcpennington -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 10:53:13 PM)

Maybe a compromise would be to allow transfers of SUs to Stavka or OKH to cost 0 admin points, which would allow the player on the next turn to "pull" the desired SU into the appropriate HQ. The 2 turn delay might be a good balance to the lack of AP expenditure.

And on a related point, the whole SU interface would be a lot easier to navigate if OKH and Stavka always defaulted to being on the top of the list. It can cause a headache to constantly scan through the lists of available HQs to find these (especially when they are not there...) But always having the highest HQs at the top in the interface would effectively allow that SUs could be transferred from anywhere to anywhere in 2 turns with a minimum of hassle, as opposed to the current one which can become a bit mind-numbing.



JAMiAM -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (2/29/2012 11:07:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



What I do is use the automated system to get all the support units up to OKH. Then I can freely assign them down to the units I want for free and lock them down.


More or less the same thing happens on the Soviet side.

As a practical matter experienced players are completely bypassing the AP costs associated with SU transfers. It's just a huge pain in the ass to do so and a lot of busywork. My own view is that we might as well cut out the middleman here.

I'll be the contrarian here and point out that the "obvious" solution is to do away with the free Support Unit tranfers from STAVKA/OKH/Soviet MDs for any SU. Only allow free transfers for Combat Units. Also, have the auto transfers incur a debit of 1 AP for every 2 SUs transferred during the logistics phase (with negative balances temporarily allowed). Then increment up the per turn allotment to both sides by 10-20 APs.

Of course, this would never happen...[:D]

Anyhow, I do take exception to the STAVKA/OKH travelling road show. It might grant a few APs saved here and there, but the SU attachments still have to be paid for when pulled to Combat Units, so in actual practice, the savings are rather minimal for the aforementioned tedium.



fbs -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 12:39:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

I'll be the contrarian here and point out that the "obvious" solution is to do away with the free Support Unit tranfers from STAVKA/OKH/Soviet MDs for any SU. Only allow free transfers for Combat Units. Also, have the auto transfers incur a debit of 1 AP for every 2 SUs transferred during the logistics phase (with negative balances temporarily allowed). Then increment up the per turn allotment to both sides by 10-20 APs.

Of course, this would never happen...[:D]

Anyhow, I do take exception to the STAVKA/OKH travelling road show. It might grant a few APs saved here and there, but the SU attachments still have to be paid for when pulled to Combat Units, so in actual practice, the savings are rather minimal for the aforementioned tedium.




I would have nothing against auto transfers costing something. That way the thing between manual vs auto would become just a matter of preference.

Just to be sure: I'm a huge admirer of the game. I think it's incredibly polished and well-thought. When I see things like "the rate for recovering damaged tanks in mud is smaller than in clear season", I'm thoroughly impressed. I even managed to accept the idea that any hex is an air base. But when I see something like "auto is free, manual costs - but auto sucks - and by the way you need to roll Stavka around the map either way" it doesn't impress me the slightest. It's senseless. Careless. It's a cavity in what's otherwise a perfect row of teeth.




Flaviusx -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 1:34:41 AM)

James, I put all my HQs but STAVKA to zero on turns 1-3, set STAVKA to 9 and drain them dry. After that, literally every SU that is going to an HQ is getting there through STAVKA. The AP savings are very substantial, don't kid yourself on this score. When you're looking at a half dozen such free transfers per 60ish armies, plus various Front, air HQs, etc...yeah. This has become even more attractive now that the Soviet Union must use a lot more armies than before.






vinnie71 -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 3:35:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

James, I put all my HQs but STAVKA to zero on turns 1-3, set STAVKA to 9 and drain them dry. After that, literally every SU that is going to an HQ is getting there through STAVKA. The AP savings are very substantial, don't kid yourself on this score. When you're looking at a half dozen such free transfers per 60ish armies, plus various Front, air HQs, etc...yeah. This has become even more attractive now that the Soviet Union must use a lot more armies than before.







That's quite interesting and applicable to both sides. Having said that, especially after '42, such costs tend to escalate. I'm finding that even the Axis have to cut back a bit on AP spending, especially if one likes to control Luftwaffe more under control.



JAMiAM -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 3:42:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

James, I put all my HQs but STAVKA to zero on turns 1-3, set STAVKA to 9 and drain them dry. After that, literally every SU that is going to an HQ is getting there through STAVKA. The AP savings are very substantial, don't kid yourself on this score. When you're looking at a half dozen such free transfers per 60ish armies, plus various Front, air HQs, etc...yeah. This has become even more attractive now that the Soviet Union must use a lot more armies than before.

Well...that's where you and I differ. I prefer to keep the SUs fighting the Axis from the get go, and only transfer out what I need, in order to flesh out the newly forming armies. The only thing I attach to Fronts are the RR Construction Brigades, which are built on the spot, or freely transferred from Stavka. So, the only real AP expenditures I have for transferring SUs comes from the initial movement from Army A, to new Army B.



Flaviusx -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 4:12:57 AM)

Soviet command and control in the first few turns is such a mongolian clusterf*ck that I think the benefits of leaving SUs in the HQs are mostly illusory. Better imo to straighten out your CC first and then trick out HQs appropriately.




glvaca -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 9:19:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

You won't get an argument from me that the automated system of moving support units leaves something to be desired. I used it in a recent game as the Soviet player and could not get things allocated the way I wanted to save my life.[&:]

The automated system is not the same thing as the manual system without AP costs. The automated system is merely trying to satisfiy the level set at each HQ irrespective of what the actual battlefield needs are. The system assumes the level corresponds to the battlefield situation in an abstract sense. If you set an HQ's level at 1, the system will try to provide one of every type of unit it can even if all you wanted was one artillery unit with that HQ.

By contrast, the manual system allows you to control not only the number of a type of support unit assigned to an HQ, but what actual types are assigned and even the particular support unit itself. Want that Tiger battalion to go to the SS Panzer Corps? You can do that with the manual system, you can't with the automated. The combination of such micro-management ability and the theoretical unlimited range you can transfer unit comes at the small price of a single AP for each unit. Sounds like a bargain in my book.


We understand how the system works, thank you very much.

We just would like a little more control, for instance be able to set the different types of SU's individually would go a long way.
2 arty, 1 AA, 3 sappers, etc...
An easy whay to bumb it to Stavka (like for divs with the X to go back to Corps).
No cost within the parent organization would be nice, for instance Army or Army group or whatever.

Finally, your arguement is thin as it doesn't cast any AP when you transfer SU directly to an army from OKH or Stavka.



Baelfiin -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 11:12:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Soviet command and control in the first few turns is such a mongolian clusterf*ck that I think the benefits of leaving SUs in the HQs are mostly illusory. Better imo to straighten out your CC first and then trick out HQs appropriately.



ROFL



fbs -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/1/2012 4:40:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

We just would like a little more control, for instance be able to set the different types of SU's individually would go a long way.
2 arty, 1 AA, 3 sappers, etc...




Hooray to that.

Don't think that will happen anytime soon, though, unless it's in scope of the War in the West thingie.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Can we eliminate the cost of moving support units around, please? (3/2/2012 3:07:39 AM)

Just let me combine those German SU's, or better yet have them auto combine if the I,II,III of the 360th Light but Tasteful Interior Decorating Battalion are under the same HQ.



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