~ 1941 .. the other war (Full Version)

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Commander Stormwolf -> ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 3:52:22 AM)



...this is how an air force looks like when preparing a serious campaign

BF-109F2 is better than Ki-27.. looking at the eastern front help to improve awareness [:D]

(as often one becomes fixated on the pacific..and has some delusions like Ki-43 was a good design [;)])

[image]local://upfiles/28382/5D9AF67C57FB4217983ED701D2B3A274.jpg[/image]



mike scholl 1 -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 4:00:17 AM)

Possibly the world's best "short ranged" Air Force in 1941..., but put it in the vast expanses of the Pacific and it's pretty much worthless. Try to figure out how to "stage" some Bf-109's from Tokyo to Truk sometime. Air Forces are created to meet their nation's needs, and Japan's were very different from Germany's.



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 4:07:03 AM)

quote:

Try to figure out how to "stage" some Bf-109's from Tokyo to Truk sometime


Same way you send Spitfires to malta [8D]

quote:

Air Forces are created to meet their nation's needs,


Agreed

quote:

and Japan's were very different from Germany


Japan had to fight and win an attritional campaign against RAF and USAAF 4E units
their emphasis on range cut down on performance

- remember for most of the war japan was on the defensive

so the needs were basically the same



YankeeAirRat -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 7:17:52 AM)

Actually no, the Japanese were not on the defensive. Rather they were stupid and opened a second front to gain mineral wealth to feed thier military-industrial complex which was destroying thier economy while fighting to gain control of China. Prior to 1942 the Japanese were winning the war in China and by 1939 they have effectively rendered the Nationalist Chinese as an ineffective fighting force who were more of a bother then anything else, the Nationalist Air Force was routinely having thier clocked cleaned (which is why they hired out Chennault and other aerial Mercs). As for Mao's group they were pushed back into Manchuria and so disorganized that they were more of a gnat then anything to the Japanese in the region. The Zero was born from the need to have an aircraft that was more manuerable then the I-16's which were cleaning the clocks of the Nates the IJNAF was flying over China at the time. Also since day one the Japanese had to consider range, remember post WW1 they recieved the Marshall Islands as tribute for going to war against the Imperial Germany assets in the Far East (along with a few other possessions). So if you factor in the need to cycle some aircraft from the home islands to far flung stations such as Kwajalean (2213nm from Tokyo) or Taipei (1122nm from Tokyo). The furtherst the Luftwaffe had to fly from its home bases within Germany proper was to Danzig in West Prussia a total distance of 219nm one way. Nearly all of the other major capitals were also under 1000nm. The longest being Moscom which clocked in at just over 800nm from Berlin or 700nm from Danzig to Moscow. Which was a stretch but the Bf109 could do it if needed. So there was a need for long range fighters to escort thier long range bombers to targets like the Philippines or even Wake if the American's decided to attack the Home Islands. The Germans didn't have to worry about a range issue like the Japanese did.



morganbj -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 2:33:02 PM)

And I caught myself trying to use the slider in the photo ....



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 2:46:14 PM)

quote:

Actually no, the Japanese were not on the defensive


The pacific campaign was basically a few months of smash-and-grab (japan taking the SRA)

and years of static defence of new guinea and rabaul

most of the battles were fought at short range between Lae and Port Moresby,
or just overhead of Rabaul.

You are right that ferrying the planes would be harder...but USAAF managed to get warhawks to australia.. somehow [:)]



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 2:58:07 PM)

quote:

And I caught myself trying to use the slider in the photo ....


[:D] perhaps you are interested in a match?

*so ... many.. junkers..* [X(]

[image]local://upfiles/28382/E1C9789F64CA498A84184BF61C30BD45.jpg[/image]



EUBanana -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 4:21:00 PM)

Cool.

But surely AE's ground model is totally inadequate to depict the Eastern Front... and for that matter the air to ground model is pretty ropey too, if there's a large number LCUs involved. Which isn't all that often the case in the Pacific but presumably would be here.



mdiehl -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 4:51:08 PM)

quote:

Japan had to fight and win an attritional campaign against RAF and USAAF 4E units their emphasis on range cut down on performance


The emphasis was on strategic materials, not "range." Japan never had enough of anything to build a.c. with the characteristics of, for example, the FW-190. Their late war radial types were entry level efforts in the area of high performance fighters, and they were pretty awful. Lousy reliability and still not as durable as the allied types they encountered.



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 5:05:42 PM)

quote:

Japan never had enough of anything to build a.c. with the characteristics of, for example, the FW-190


Yes they did..FW-190A used a 1700hp radial, IJN had the 1850hp Ha-32-21 since 1/43

Japanese AC carried a lot more fuel than european ones, it made them slow

Even the soviets had fighters reaching 400mph, and those were made of wood and not duralumin



FW-190 with extra fuel only reached 380mph..



crsutton -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 5:16:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

quote:

Japan never had enough of anything to build a.c. with the characteristics of, for example, the FW-190


Yes they did..FW-190A used a 1700hp radial, IJN had the 1850hp Ha-32-21 since 1/43

Japanese AC carried a lot more fuel than european ones, it made them slow

Even the soviets had fighters reaching 400mph, and those were made of wood and not duralumin



FW-190 with extra fuel only reached 380mph..



I think it would be incorrect to compare any Japanese late war aircraft to any German late war design. Stats on paper mean very little when you are comparing the output of two entirely different industrial systems. One, in spite if its flaws, was vastly superior than the other. The Smithsonian has both a beautifully restored George and a FW190. One only need to go look at both to see. Even an untrained eye can easily recognize the vast differences.



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 6:02:41 PM)


La-5 and T-34 look ugly also.. but function pretty well [;)]



Feinder -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 6:53:33 PM)

I would have expected to see more flak in Berlin.

So you've created a European Front version? Ouch, sounds like LOTs of work. You have a screen shot of the strat map?

-F-



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 7:04:05 PM)


It's Dali's WITP:War In Russia [;)]

(plus some minor tweaks)



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 9:37:40 PM)


you will never look at a japanese tank regiment, the same way again[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/28382/98611897F7004DEF883BD5EBA6547417.jpg[/image]



dr.hal -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 9:43:49 PM)

Good input!



ADB123 -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/23/2012 10:33:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


you will never look at a japanese tank regiment, the same way again[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/28382/98611897F7004DEF883BD5EBA6547417.jpg[/image]


Can I borrow a few of those for a summer 1942 invasion of Oz? I would love to see Raverdave's comments when a stack of them showed up at Melbourne... [:D][:D][:D]



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/24/2012 1:52:16 AM)

well all the IJA tank regiments are about the equal of 3 divisions (though the tanks themselves are pretty small)



Durbik -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/24/2012 9:59:36 AM)

Everytime I look at ZAMOCS instead of ZAMOSC, it really hurts me.

I remember in days of Panzer General I, there was ZAKOPAE instead of ZAKOPANE - and that wasn't that easy to tweak as it is here :D



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: ~ 1941 .. the other war (3/24/2012 1:05:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Durbik

Everytime I look at ZAMOCS instead of ZAMOSC, it really hurts me.

I remember in days of Panzer General I, there was ZAKOPAE instead of ZAKOPANE - and that wasn't that easy to tweak as it is here :D

In almost every game German city names are also screwed up :(



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