RE: Prospective buyer question (Full Version)

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DBeves -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/7/2012 12:58:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


I suggest you should start a 1941 grand campaign scenario as the Germans. And then go into the info screen and from there go to the reinforcement/withdrawal schedule screen. Go to Feb 43 and tell me what do you see.
I'll bet you see nothing about the 6th army withdrawing. Why… because it does not happen. Look at the summer of 44 do you see all of Army group center being withdrawing… nope you do not, because it does not happen. Only historical withdrawals happen like moving units to Italy because the Allies invaded.
As far as I can tell
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
The best examples are Stalingrad, of course - you lose those units whether or not Stalingrad happens.

is a lie


So of course I havent looked at this I suppose you are much cleverer than I am... the issue has already been answered in a different post - but the 94th division for example was never withdrawn from the eastern front - it was destroyed at stalingrad. A reconstituted division was sent to the med in 44. The simple fact is it is the people who defend this that are lying about the issue not helio. The division was reconstituted from manpower outside of the division. That is manpower that would have been available any way if the division hadnt been destroyed and part of the manpower that formed the reconstituted division actually came from outside the eastern front. That manpower would have been sent to the med under a different name if the 94th hadnt been destroyed. The simple fact is the division could be at full strength and been deployed in berlin the whole war until 43 - but it will still get withdrawn regardless of anything else that happens simply because a division with that name was dployed in the med at that time. People who cant see anything wrong with that are blind. The simple thing to have done would have given the german player the opportunity to deploy what he saw fit - within a requirement of a certain strenght. Obvious to me - and just bad design it wasnt done that way. So please - what exactly is the lie ?



DBeves -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/7/2012 1:04:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sj80

Hey majur,
you've started the usual discussion. I wouldn't give too much attention to the negative arguments.
I would give more attention to the fun of playing this game. WITE provides me very much fun. Playing against the AI is nice but the real fun is playing against a good human. The game is definitly worth the money.
Check out the AAR forum, this is the best way to get an impression of the game.

sj80

[:D] yes dont pay too much attention to the negative comments if you want to base your decision on a one sided argument. Really - thats quite the most ridiculous thing thats been said in the whole thread. He comes here to ask for opinions and your answer is that he should only listen to those who say the game is worth the money - seriously - why would he bother to ask the question in the first place if thats what he was looking for ?



Fδnrik Stεl -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/7/2012 1:07:41 PM)

There are the four GCs covering the entire map and starting at -41 to -44. The smaller scenarios vary in length between 3 to 20 turns and are typically covering the operations of one army group in the case of the germans, or one or a couple of fronts in the case of scenarios designed to be played as soviet. The game isn't really designed in a way that would make smaller scenarios meaningful.

For beginners, there is the Velikiye Luki scenario which is good for learning the mechanics of the game, and after that the various "Road to.." scenarios let you step up the difficulty.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/7/2012 1:17:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


I suggest you should start a 1941 grand campaign scenario as the Germans. And then go into the info screen and from there go to the reinforcement/withdrawal schedule screen. Go to Feb 43 and tell me what do you see.
I'll bet you see nothing about the 6th army withdrawing. Why… because it does not happen. Look at the summer of 44 do you see all of Army group center being withdrawing… nope you do not, because it does not happen. Only historical withdrawals happen like moving units to Italy because the Allies invaded.
As far as I can tell
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
The best examples are Stalingrad, of course - you lose those units whether or not Stalingrad happens.

is a lie


So of course I havent looked at this I suppose you are much cleverer than I am... the issue has already been answered in a different post - but the 94th division for example was never withdrawn from the eastern front - it was destroyed at stalingrad. A reconstituted division was sent to the med in 44. The simple fact is it is the people who defend this that are lying about the issue not helio. The division was reconstituted from manpower outside of the division. That is manpower that would have been available any way if the division hadnt been destroyed and part of the manpower that formed the reconstituted division actually came from outside the eastern front. That manpower would have been sent to the med under a different name if the 94th hadnt been destroyed. The simple fact is the division could be at full strength and been deployed in berlin the whole war until 43 - but it will still get withdrawn regardless of anything else that happens simply because a division with that name was dployed in the med at that time. People who cant see anything wrong with that are blind. The simple thing to have done would have given the german player the opportunity to deploy what he saw fit - within a requirement of a certain strenght. Obvious to me - and just bad design it wasnt done that way. So please - what exactly is the lie ?


Ok, what happens in game terms

Destroyed vs not Destroyed...

94th Destroyed:
Player loses manpower in division AND
Spawns in map and fills up untill min. TOE AND
Withdraws

94th not Destroyed:
Fills up untill min. TOE AND
Withdraws

Granted, you lose the division either way.. yes, you don't get to decide what withdraws...

THE GERMANS NEEDED TO WITHDRAW TROOPS (CADRES AND MANPOWER) TO THE WESTERN FRONT... Your fighting a two front war (with half of it simulated).

Think about this: WOULD THE GERMANS HAVE SENT MORE FORCES EAST IF THE SITUATION WAS RELATIVELY STABLE AND THE ALLIED ARMIES WERE RUNNING RAMPANT IN ITALY..

I do believe both sides should get the chance to make decisions on division TOEs.. Wouldn't it be fun to partially decide how your division mix would look?



KenchiSulla -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/7/2012 1:26:11 PM)

There are a few issues mentioned here that could be solved quite easily..

If you want to decide what withdraws and what does not... By all means, edit the withdrawl out...



Emx77 -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/7/2012 5:49:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur

Thanks for all your comments, guys. I think I'm getting the general picture... Sorry, I didn't realise my innocent question would open up Pandora's box.

I've got one more question, though--I've been playing TOAW so far and there are quite a lot of enthusiasts who make awesome unofficial scenarios for this game. How about this aspect of WitE? Is there a thriving user-made scenarios scene? Are there any user-made scenarios available at all, or is it just what comes with the game. Besides, I've been talking to some people on a different forum an they say that there are very few small scenarios included, good for beginners, most of them being rather big, campaign-like...? Is that true?



There is official expansion pack with additional 10 smaller scenarios but you have to pay additional $15 for it. You can check Scenario Design and Modding forum section for unofficial scenarios but I'm afraid there is no as much scenario enthusiasts in WiTE community as it were in TOAW community.



Joel Billings -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/7/2012 6:44:22 PM)

As far as scenarios go, I think the main reason you don't see a lot of user made scenarios is because most player's attention is on the grand campaign, and creating scenarios is a major effort given the detail in the data in the game. There are some user made scenarios, but there are quite a few smaller scenarios available in the base game, and many more in the Don to the Danube expansion. My own opinion is that the game system works very well for Army Group sized scenarios that can last from 10-40 turns. My favorite for play against another human player is Drama on the Danube, but several of the Road to ... scenarios are very good against the AI, especially as a way to learn the game. If you played every non-campaign scenario once from both sides, in my opinion you would have gotten your money's worth out of the game and probably have played for hundreds of hours.

As you can tell by the discussion on the forum, there are some that believe we made some poor design decisions and because of this the game doesn't live up to their expectations. There are also many people that enjoy playing the game and either don't care about these design decisions or for whom they do not spoil their enjoyment of the game. I'm not sure how you can provide a demo of a game that has a 400 page manual that would allow a new player to both learn the game and appreciate what it has to offer, although I can understand the desire to have a demo. This game has enough going for it that some of the testers created a "boot camp" tutorial to go with the game, and after release, users created a wiki for it. Also, fans have translated the manual into French, Russian, Spanish, and Japanese, while Matrix translated it into German. For anyone to voluntarily translate a near 400 page manual, you know someone must like it. No game is perfect, and no game this complicated comes without controversial design decisions and compromises.

Here's the list of scenarios available:

1) Operation Barbarossa – 22 June 1941 – 3 December 1941
2) Road to Minsk – 22 June 1941 – 10 July 1941
3) Road to Smolensk – 22 June 1941 – 7 August 1941
4) Road to Kiev – 22 June 1941 – 28 August 1941
5) Road to Leningrad – 22 June 1941 – 15 October 1941
6) Road to Moscow - 22 June 1941 – 15 October 1941
7) Road to Leningrad - 22 June 1941 - 15 October 1941
8) Operation Typhoon – 30 September 1941 – 5 January 1942
9) Operation Blue – 27 June 1942 – 13 November 1942
10) Velikie Luki ’42 Tutorial – 8 November 1942 – 9 January 1943
11) Demjansk Pocket 1942 (editor tutorial) – 8 January 1942 – 22 April 1942
12) 1941-45 Campaign – 22 June 1942 – 1945
13) 1942-45 Campaign – 27 June 1942 – 1945
14) 1943-45 Campaign – 4 July 1943 – 1945
15) 1944-45 Campaign – 22 June 1944 – 1945
16) 1941-45 Campaign - Alt VC260 – 22 June 1944 – 1945

The Don to the Danube expansion adds the following scenarios:

1) Battle for Kharkov 1942 (12 May - 22 June 1942 - 6 turns)
2) Operation Sturgeon Catch 1942 (2 June - 3 August 1942 – 9 turns)
3) Case Blue – Phase I (28 June - 18 July 1942 - 3 turns)
4) Operation Uranus 1942 (19 November - 30 December 1942- 6 turns)
5) Operation Kutuzov-Rumyantsev (5 July - 29 August 1943 – 8 turns)
6) Cherkassy Pocket 1944 (24 January - 5 March 1944 – 6 turns)
7) Red Army Resurgent (19 November 1942 – 17 March 1943 – 17 turns)
8) Decision in the Ukraine (24 September 1943 – 4 May 1944 – 32 turns)
9) Retreat from Leningrad (22 June 1944 – 3 January 1945 – 28 turns)
10) Drama on the Danube (20 August 1944 – 5 May 1945 – 37 turns)



Scook_99 -> RE: Prospective buyer question (4/8/2012 2:14:45 AM)

Joel, if lightning strikes and I can come up with a demo idea, you will be the 1st to know :)

Scenarios are large in the eastern front, and generally everything you do there is go big, and lot of men will be involved. The one scenario I would really like to do is the Crimea, but that would probably daily turns, the map scale would need to change (more like 2km per hex), and unit size would be reminiscent to Avalon Hill's 'Longest Day', which is battalion/company sized units. I think it would be fun, but I *think* that would be outside what the editor can do. Not positive, but only so many hours in the day and the editor has to sit.



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