Extended Lvov (Full Version)

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Michael T -> Extended Lvov (4/6/2012 4:27:47 AM)

I have had a few requests for info on my Extended Lvov opening. Well here it is. I am not going to elaborate too much. It took me quite a bit of time to work out so I am reluctant to just hand feed it all.

You will need 2 Pz and 2 Mot from 2nd Pz Army to pull it off plus GD. You don’t need these guys to achieve the normal link up around Minsk and I replace them with 2 of the fixed Mech units from 14th Pz Corp on turn 2. Plus two from 4th Pz Group (You only need 4 out of the 6 Mech units to nail Leningrad). So overall AGS gains 2 Mech Divisions and AGN loses 2 Mech Divs. The extra units bagged in AGS on turn 1 are a big hit on Ivan. It’s worth it.

This move, the AGS Gambit on turn 1, is complex and not without risk. You will need to practice it over and over until you perfect it before attempting in a real game. But I have used it successfully for my past 4 games as German. Yes the Lvov group will get back in to supply but only for one turn. The other pockets will hold if done right.

Enjoy [:)]


[image]local://upfiles/22630/D6E73B39CBC94AB5A17BE56464C039EC.jpg[/image]



Michael T -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/6/2012 4:28:49 AM)

Here is a clue to whats going on, not all there but it should help.

[image]local://upfiles/22630/986B22A5D4B74DCC92A654822345D061.jpg[/image]



JAMiAM -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/6/2012 6:54:59 PM)

Ha! I'd love to see a Lvov opening like that. I'd rip the Axis a new poopchute. Easy to break, a bunch of broken down German mobile regiments to bounce around, and you'd be able to tarbaby/isolate most of PG 1 for about three turns. It is wildly overextended and therefore weakened.



AFV -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/6/2012 7:37:59 PM)

JAMiAM- I respect what you said, but I don't think it would be all that easy.
Perhaps you and Michael should play a special 3 turn game? It would be interesting to see the outcome.



JAMiAM -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/6/2012 8:02:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

JAMiAM- I respect what you said, but I don't think it would be all that easy.
Perhaps you and Michael should play a special 3 turn game? It would be interesting to see the outcome.


I don't have the time to play the games I already have going. It would be irresponsible for me to take on more.

Also, this strategy of his relies on the First Turn special movement rates being broken. The regiments are supposed to be charged +2 MPs for movement through enemy territory, but for quite some time, it's been screwed up one way (too many MPs charged) or another (not enough). If/when this ever gets properly fixed, Axis players are not going to be able to do this much fanning out with their regiments, due to MP expenditures.



Michael T -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/7/2012 12:30:02 AM)

James Sov's would be screwed if he tried to resist it. It can't get broken. Only Lvov guys get back in supply, temporarily. If you like James I will send you a file. See if you can riggle out.



comsolut -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/7/2012 12:56:41 AM)

Thanks for taking the time to share this opening.



JAMiAM -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/7/2012 1:32:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

James Sov's would be screwed if he tried to resist it. It can't get broken. Only Lvov guys get back in supply, temporarily. If you like James I will send you a file. See if you can riggle out.


Hi Michael,

If you'd like, send it to iamjamiam (at) yahoo (dot) com. I don't have time to do more than just play around with a response to the Lvov pocket though, so please don't expect that we can do a game out of it.

Regards,
James



carlkay58 -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/7/2012 1:34:08 AM)

James, the problem is that it is turn one, the Soviets have almost no mp, and the first turn modifiers will make you totally ineffective - you will just end up throwing away more troops.



Michael T -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/7/2012 2:55:15 AM)

Ok I am going to send this file to a few guys who have asked for it. A couple of things to remember.

This was a quick and dirty example just to demonstrate the move, in a real game it would be a little tighter. I did not bother taking out the Soviet airforce so in this example when you try your breakout only fair to switch off air support. I also would normally have added a few more support units to reg's that face counter attack.

Consider that in a real game a Soviet would face some very tough decisions. Like if he decides to try and break out with support from outside and it fails he will lose even more troops next turn. So bear this in mind, the risk associated with a counter attack. To be honest I prefer it when the Soviets try to save the pocketed units. It means more fall in to the trap. So try to think in the terms I have one shot to get this right, not replay an attack over and over till you get a result.

With any move there are variations due to units routing or direction of retreat. This move is not guaranteed. But I rekon done properly has about a 90% of coming off. I have failed in practice sessions but in 5 out of 5 real in game attempts it has succeeded. Ask Marquo, Bobo821, Vorsteher, Sillyflower and Kamil how they found it. It has worked very well for me.

In the end I don't really care if some you guys like it or not. I do and I use it. It's entirely up to you if you want to pursue it. I only put it out there because some guys asked for it. I thought it only fair to make it public rather than just show a select few. I have not seen it appear anywhere else. Its entirely my own variation. Of course that doesn't mean others have done it as well but haven't made it public. None of my opponents have seen it before.

So there you have it. I am going away for a week or so so don't expect much from me in responce.

Happy Easter all :)



HITMAN202 -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/7/2012 12:07:31 PM)

What do you do at Brest Litovest,,, bypass and isolate it ????



HITMAN202 -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/8/2012 2:55:59 AM)

Michael T. You're a magician !!!! It took me 4-5 hours but I followed you hints (actually they were pretty clear directions) to a T and it is more than doable. In fact I had a lot of holds and did it comfortably . I did use a lot of air to ground attacks to soften key targets. The key is the regiment 3 hexes from Zhitomir. There are no MP's to spare. Its amazing that often 2 regiment attacks in your plan are as good as the full division in accomplishing this pocket. I could have never figured it out. From my chess background I'll call this the Michael T. variation of the Lvov Pocket. An amazing piece of work.....

Also it will not be broken (other than the big pocket itself.) The only chance I see is on the key regiment 3 hexes from Zhitomir which can get hit by hasty attacks from 3 paratroopers. But I think the German regiment can not be budged.



Michael T -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/15/2012 3:11:28 AM)

I spend more time actually testing and analysing than playing. I have a few more tricks up my sleve but they shall remain secret for now. Glad you find the gambit worth pursuing.



HITMAN202 -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/15/2012 3:30:03 AM)

You call it a gambit ... I guess it is in a chess sense... and the implication is it can backfire and trip you up (gambit is gambetto (Italian) which means tripping... I looked that up..), so how bad is it when it doesn't work ???... it looks pretty bad !!!



Michael T -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/15/2012 3:52:20 AM)

Probably not much risk if done exactly right. But if attempted before some practice and you suffer some bad die rolls then it might get ugly. There is also some indirect risk in that you are stripping 4 and 1/2 div's from AGC. So a weaker AGC means there is potential for it to go bad as well, at least in the 2nd Pz Army. I mean in the sense that the Sov's could re establish contact with the AGC pocket. You don't want that.



matt.buttsworth -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/15/2012 4:42:38 AM)

Proves my point.
The only way to stop people endlessly practising their turn with perfect knowledge is to begin the 1941 campaign on June 22nd with the Russians having a limited ability to move some of their units on the first turn so that the Germans do not know what they will be facing.
Otherwise the massacre will always be total with no risk to the germans at all on the first turn which is totally unrealistic and undercuts the otherwise splendid nature fo the game after the first turn.

Matthew buttsworth



Michael T -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/15/2012 4:47:29 AM)

Free setup for both sides within defined areas would be great. But you need to tie it to some mechanism that curtails the runaway. The game has huge loopholes for both sides.



matt.buttsworth -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/15/2012 7:42:02 AM)

Yep

It would have to be tied down, especially in the front areas.
the question then would be if the russians have it should the germans then have it, to see if they modify anything according to recon. could become tricky to create if you allowed anything more than a limited Russian June 15 turn.

MB



Walloc -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/16/2012 9:31:58 AM)

Hi Michael T,

Nice moves.

Chuckles, some what.
I remember back in the day of SF and WIR how it was it was physical impossible to advance to Minsk in the first week/turn. You IIRC could max end up 1 hex short. Quite a bit of controvercy and outrage about that back then.
Seems to be alot less attention to the fact that in WiTE, u can reach Talinn and be over the upper and lower Dneipr in turn 2/within 6 days.


Ah well, the change of winds in the world of GG wargaming

Rasmus



Flaviusx -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/16/2012 10:25:38 AM)

Well, not quite the Don. The Dnepr.



Walloc -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/16/2012 10:26:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, not quite the Don. The Dnepr.


True, thx for correcting me Flav.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



gids -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/16/2012 11:56:57 AM)

very nice move
@ matt but: indeed war should be more or less a bit random and give chances to both side ,wherein this nice opening move the russian loses his whole southfront in a turn :p,and will have to send tons of reinforcements to the south ,and is sure now to loose leningrad and most possibly moscou aswell,and the remark 'tricks in his sleeve 'makes me shivery :p but still very nice move



karonagames -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 10:19:27 AM)

@ MichaelT. In the spirit of balance and fair play; and as you play both sides successfully, can you show the way you would defend against this opening move when you play as soviet. I am currently preparing for my first Soviet GC in over a year, and it seems inevitable that every Axis player will be trying to emulate this opening move, so I would like to be prepared to deal with it.



Callistrid -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 12:09:02 PM)

This is an unfair open from the german.
If any player will do that against me, I'll leave the game.



matt.buttsworth -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 4:07:38 PM)

Hello Everyone,

I restate my point.
Unless the Russians have a limited ability to move on June 15 (such an early opening already exists in War in the Pacific in the allied turn before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor) so that the Germans do not know the exact disposition of their forces on the first turn this game will suffer as the German attack on the first move becomes ever more devastating as it is based upon total perfect knowledge of Russian disposition which did not exist in real life.
It is a flaw which the designers of the game need to fix by offering an optional June 15 scenario.

Matthew Buttsworth



Flaviusx -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 4:31:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

This is an unfair open from the german.
If any player will do that against me, I'll leave the game.


Fix the damned surprise turn. This has been a problem since forever, and people are just finding more and more outre ways to take advantage of it.

Don't blame Michael, blame the game design.

Bob, I'm waiting to see how James deals with this. Speaking frankly, I think he's delusional in his belief this can be managed.

Michael has always claimed that the Soviet side is easier, but I am morally certain that if Michael played each side against himself, he'd spank the Soviets hard. His Soviet play is nothing amazing.



Flaviusx -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 4:39:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

Hello Everyone,

I restate my point.
Unless the Russians have a limited ability to move on June 15 (such an early opening already exists in War in the Pacific in the allied turn before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor) so that the Germans do not know the exact disposition of their forces on the first turn this game will suffer as the German attack on the first move becomes ever more devastating as it is based upon total perfect knowledge of Russian disposition which did not exist in real life.
It is a flaw which the designers of the game need to fix by offering an optional June 15 scenario.

Matthew Buttsworth


I really don't see how this can work. A free setup is going to massively favor the Soviet unless you've got so many restrictions that it begs the question of how "free" it really is.

My quick and dirty fix: just remove all the surprise turn penalties from the Soviet side. Most importantly the movement penalty. These reckless pockets would be a lot tougher to pull off if the Soviets weren't zombies on turn one. But even that is a bandaid that recommends itself only because it is easy to code. Fundamentally, the surprise turn needs to be reworked from the ground up, and that's not happening.



janh -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 5:03:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
@ MichaelT. In the spirit of balance and fair play; and as you play both sides successfully, can you show the way you would defend against this opening move when you play as soviet. I am currently preparing for my first Soviet GC in over a year, and it seems inevitable that every Axis player will be trying to emulate this opening move, so I would like to be prepared to deal with it.


It is impressive (and scary) to see what the game allows a German to do. This move corresponds to a huge time gain, I would say. Seems like 1/3 of the initial Soviet forces, and the higher quality part of it, is in this pocket.

I am not surprised that someone came up with an even better move. Honestly, that's what a game is for. But after that move, the Soviets are even more off balance and so is the relationship to the conflict this game set out to mimic. But it is a good thing that something like Lvov can be tried. Just the degree to which it works is weird. Michael certainly shows force economy at its best. I wonder what implications this will have for the retreat of the Soviets in the South.

There really should be some randomness in the setups, or, much more directed at the origin of the thing, something to make stationary units react to by-passers. I hope for the best for the next titles, this repeated would be too linear.

Let's see whether there is a counter-move to it? I suppose it requires a a further weakening of fronts and reinforcements directed against AGC and AGN?

PS. A late afterthought: Some suggested at with a trustworthy opponent, the Soviet player could be allowed some editor changes to the 1st turn Soviet setup by some houserules. Alternatively, how about creating 9 "alternative GC setups" with minimal changes for everyone and then randomly choose one at start? Won't help AI, but PBEM. With AI, self-discipline must do.



JAMiAM -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 6:08:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Don't blame Michael, blame the game design.

Bob, I'm waiting to see how James deals with this. Speaking frankly, I think he's delusional in his belief this can be managed.


I admit that I was unable to restore supply the northern pockets, though it was a close run thing with some attacks against the broken down Das Reich Regiments. I was able to budge one of them, but didn't have enough MPs left to convert the last hex needed.

The analysis of this situation, however, did reveal that the First Turn Surprise Rule movement point costs are...again...broken. The only reason that Michael is able to extend himself in this fashion is due to the regimental breakdown, and if the regiments were being charged their additional movement costs (+2 for entering enemy territory) he would be unable to both draw the cordon around the 16th Army, as well as leave a regiment in every other hex. He could still isolate the forces he has, but it would be a great deal "leakier".



Q-Ball -> RE: Extended Lvov (4/18/2012 9:15:45 PM)

As a patch, what about a HR somehow limiting Regt. breakdowns on Turn 1?



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