RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/2/2012 10:38:23 PM)
Here's how the divisions break down by campaign: Japan: 7, 53, 54 China/Manchuria Rear: 9, 10, 11, 19, 25, 29, 35, 52, 57, 104, 110 Lanchow: 12, 17, 27, 40 Hami: 59 Ankang: 13, 36, 41 Nanyang: 1, 32, 37, 68 Hengyang: 6, 15, 39 Chittagong: 4, 18, 48, Imperial Guards Java: 56 Timor: 38 Canada: 2 Unknown: 5, 16, 33, 34, 55, 116, 4th Guards, 6th Guards

Cap Mandrake -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/2/2012 11:04:30 PM)
Hory chitt! It is Chittagong!

Ingtar -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/2/2012 11:12:44 PM)
I am now reading both sides, so no comments from me except that seeing this from both sides is wildly amusing.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/2/2012 11:27:09 PM)
What is the place built up to and what do you have there in supply and fuel? Also what have you in Assam? Anything you cant afford to lose?

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/2/2012 11:34:09 PM)
Chittagong isn't built up much and will fall the first day - 1500 AV vs. about 150 is no contest. I don't have much fuel there and the airfield is a level one. Further out on the line, most of the Burma Army is spread all over creation. But it can melt into the jungle if necessary - either making for the Ledo area or even towards China. Some I might try to extract by air transport. The reconcilation of where all the Japanese divisions are is important, becuase if, as I currently think, Steve has overloaded China, then that leaves him with precious few to use elsewhere. He needs alot more to really do damage in India (he has four; in my game with Q-Ball, the Japanese had as many as 20 divisions operating there). He can bring more to India, but probably not enough to threaten the continent. Same with North America - I don't think Japan poses a realistic threat even for some precision surgical invasions. That probably leaves three places Steve can now commit divisions - Oz, India and China. I feel pretty confident in my ability now to handle the former two. China is the real key. I even feel guardedly optimistic there, but that's the cirticial theater IMO.

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/2/2012 11:52:29 PM)
Let me put it another way. If I can complete my reconciliation (list) of the whereabouts of the Japnese divisions, I can accurately gauge the threat in each theater and I can also look for opportunities to go on the offense in sectors where I may outnumber Japan. I think there may be some opportunities in the Ankang and Nanyang sectors of China, assuming of course that I hold the Lanchow sector.

Cribtop -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 5:16:42 AM)
Wowzers! [X(]

JeffroK -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 8:59:04 AM)
Dont forget the IJA gets plenty of Regiments and Brigades which are pretty strong, in addition to lots of Bn sized forces which can hold the rear. If only 4 Divs I would think you are OK, wouldnt want to see a similar force making a second landing somewhere.

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 2:26:34 PM)
3/19/42 India: Japan takes Chittagong. Allied air sorties in big numbers, takes a drubbing, but beats up on several Japanese ships: CVE Hosho - three bombs, "on fire, heavy damage." DD Usugumo - two bombs, "sunk" CVE Taiyo - three bombs, "on fire," then two bombs, "heavy fires" The chances are good that these carriers will go down. Their closes port (other than Chittagong, which the Blenheims will target tomorrow) is Rangoon. Subs will patrol the tight waters between Rangoon and Port Blair. What the Invasion Means: Four divisions and a mixed brigade are enough to give me fits around Calcutta and the Imphal/Ledo line. But they aren't nearly enough to threaten India proper. Based upon my experience with Q-Ball, I think Japan needs 15 to 20 divisions at a minimum to mount a serious campaign for India. I think Steve has five to ten more that he can devote to India, so I don't think he's coming for the entire continent - at leat not in the near future and probably not at all unless he were able to wrap up things in China. I do think there's a good chance he'll come for Ceylon, which currently has just the scattered small garrisons at each base plus about 250 AV at Colombo. The closest reinforcements are two Aussie brigades aboard ship about three days out of Colombo. I may send in the two USA RCT slated for India (the first is aboard ship already inbound from Capetown; the second is at Capetown waiting for the PP to "buy" it - I can do so in about five days). I'll be prudent in protecting Karachi and Bombay, but some of the garrisons can move forward on the basis that they are insulated from bold attack since Steve's lost two carriers and wouldn't bypass Ceylon, Diego and Socatra and get that far out on a limb, at least not with Allied carriers in proximity. Bottom Line: I think Steve is campaigning in NE India and quite possibly Ceylon, but I don't think this is an all out campaign. China: Still no move across the river to attack the Chinese defending north of Lanchow. North America: Nothing happening right now. Surely Steve will move on Coal Harbor before the invasion bonus expires? To me, that's the most important hex in North America. Oz: I'm looking at my Australia forces, wondering if Steve still has plans here and wondering if and what I might send to India. I've loaded up three USA fighter squadrons to head that way, with several infantry units in strat mode in case I decide to send some of them. But a five division invasion of Oz is certainly a possibility. I'm wondering if Steve's plan might not be to mount serious campaigns in North America, Oz, China and India, with the ultimatel goal of conquering China and taking advantageous positions in the others. But he doesn't have much longer to get his ducks in a row in Canada if he really has plans there.

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 2:35:03 PM)
This could not be more fun. Japan is powerful in Scenario Two, in command of an aggressive, experienced and very good player here, and we're in early 1942 when things are toughest. Too much fun!

JohnDillworth -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 2:39:13 PM)
quote: India: Japan takes Chittagong. Allied air sorties in big numbers, takes a drubbing, but beats up on several Japanese ships: I suspect your carrier air groups are going to be real thing until mid 42 at least. Forget the TBD, you SBD pools must be hurting. How many planes & pilots did you lose? Did they throw themselves againt the BB's?

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 2:48:07 PM)
Some of the carrier air groups impaled themselves against the BBs, but a commendable number targeted the escort carriers. I can't complain there. The carrier aircraft replacement pools are in as good a shape as they can be. The only other action any carrier has seen in the war was a small sortie by Enterprise near Timor in December. Other than that, they've be in ambush mode with no ambushes to spring. Here's a tally of carrier aircraft lost today: Devastator - 20 SBD-2 - 17 SBD-3 - 8

GreyJoy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 2:52:13 PM)
Great Match Dan! I'm following also your opponent's AAR, so i won't make any comment in detail... just to let you know that i'm following this match everyday, paying a lot of attention [:)]...even if you're, once again, ahead in hints count! [:D]

TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 3:28:32 PM)
Managing to get through and actually cripple if not sink two of his escort carriers almost makes up for the fact he's staged a successful landing. With most of his carriers far away in the Pacific, I think you may have a slight tactical advantage locally now. Aggressive action by the Allies in India could cause PH to scale back his operations in North America. Or the entire operation could simply be a diversion to keep your navies from protecting CONUS. [;)]

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 3:58:03 PM)
Part of the challenge here is that I'm not sure just how many carriers are present in the Bay of Bengal and how many in NoPac. I know both theaters have fleet carriers, but I've only had a few confirmed sightings. I think the larger concentration is in the Bay of Bengal, so I'm leary of taking them on in a stand up, cariers vs. carrier, fight right now. Perhaps I'll get more information that will help clarify this point. I have York, Sara and Hornet at Balboa right now. I'm weighing whether to send them to the West Coast (if I get enough info to confirm they can stand up to the force there, assuming that force stays there, which isn't a given) or whether to send one or more to Capetown. That decision will be made as soon as I have enough information to know what's gonig on or to have a strong hunch. If Steve doesn't invade Coal Harbor before the end of the month, I think the camapign in North America will begin to taper off. I'll have to keep alot of fighters on hand to deal with the threat, but the threat will become much more manageable.

Q-Ball -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 4:20:12 PM)
This is interesting, a move on India, and as Dan mentioned, had some experience there, not all good....... I have to count, but I brought almost all my divisions, including extras bought from Manchuria, and Tank Divisions. I don't know what the number is to take the whole thing, but it has to be ALOT. The Indian Troops get better and better, and the Allies get more of them. But more importantly, the garrison requirements reallyl starts to bite into troop levels as you cross India. And Bombay is a fortress that is extremely tough, being heavy urban, and probably having piles of supplies. In order to take all of India, Ceylon is a must, as is Deigo Garcia and that other island. Ceylon requires a major effort in itself, 3 divisions at least. It will be interesting to see if he goes for Ceylon. If he never makes a move for it, I would think this is not an all-India thing. If you remember Dan, I landed pretty early at Celyon (and I think you put 18th UK division there). I thought at the time that putting the Brits there was a mistake, because you can destroy those formations, and it takes so long to rebuild Brits. Dan, can you articulate what preparations you have made in India, in terms of troops, airpower, and supplies? I assume you have been running convoys to India to stockpile extra supplies. What US Air units do you have, and what extra units did you bring? (Marines obviously, but did you bring 6th and 7th Aussie Div?)

JocMeister -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 4:29:00 PM)
Following this devolopment with huge interest! Why drink beer when you can read AARs AND drink beer? [:D]

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 4:39:14 PM)
The Allies have been attending to India since the beginning of the war. Of course, I've also been attending to the USA and Oz since I didn't know where they spearhead will go until recently, so my resources are stretched fairly thing. Still, I feel good about India and I'm way ahead of where I was in my game with Q-Ball, both in terms of assets and knowledge. Here's some of the major points: 1. One Aussie division is parked at Karachi. 2. A second division is currently deployed as follows: (1) one brigade at Cocos Island; (2) two brigades aboard transports just south of Ceylon (and probably buond for Ceylon, though I'm still giving this some thought). 3. Two Marine regiments are in northeast India near Calcutta. 4. Two USA RCT are slated for India; one aboard transports enroute to Bombay from Capetown; the second at Capetown needing a few more days to accumulate the PP to buy it. 5. Two Indian divsiions recently arrived as reinforcements. One went to Calcutta. The other is nearby. 7. The Allies have steadily run big supply TFs from Capetown to Karachi. It took me awhile to get that set up and to get the supply levels where they could sustain the convoy system, but Karachi currently has 300k supplies with much more enroute. 8. India's back door is covered. (a) Socatra has 150 AV, engineers and a US Marine CD unit; (b) North Male has a very small force; (c) Attu has 100 AV; (d) Diego has 215 AV, engineers and a US Army CD force. None of these can stop a huge attack, but certainly a move on all but North Male will require a serious commitment by Japan. 9. I'm short on fighters. Alot are in the USA, but six or seven squadrons were sent to Oz. Some of these I've already loaded aboard transports to take to India. But the RAF will be on its own for awhile. I don't think it's possible for Steve to mount a genuine move on all of India given the number of divisions committed in China. For that reason, my early hunch is that he's aiming to lock up northeast India and probably Ceylon. I think he'll bring a force of three to five divisions to Ceylon. Unless he does so very soon, I intend to reinforce and fight for that island. In other words, I will fight forward unless I obtain information that Steve has enough in reserve to mount a credible campaign for all of India. I've now just run the next turn and confirmed that Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiryu and Soryu are in the Bay of Bengal along with the two CVEs. I know that at least one CVL and Akagi are in NoPac. I don't know the wherabaouts of Kaga and Junyo and two CVLs. I just nearly have neough information now to know where the bulk of Steve's divisions, carriers, battleships and cruisers are. This will help me know where I need to fight defensively and where I might go on the offensive. I don't think Steve has enough in NoPac to stand against York, Sara and Hornet. In fact, I think he might pull his carriers out rather than risk a confrontation. I could commit mine there, either in hopes Steve might keep Akaigi and whatever else he has in theater or to support some early offensive activty such as a possible invasion to reclaim Bella Bella.

Q-Ball -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 4:44:53 PM)
Interesting.....I think putting Aussies on Ceylon is a mistake. That sounds like not enough to hold it, more than you can afford to lose. If 2/3 of the Aussie Division is wiped-out, that division will take forever to rebuild, and never quite be the same. If he comes for Ceylon, he'll be able to bring enough to take it, whether you reinforce or not. Other than that, sounds like you are well-prepared. Good move on Socotra. The Allies in India get stronger every day, so as Japan you need to really move fast. I couldnt' take it, yet by this time I was already ashore in Ceylon and Vizingapatam, and moving inland, with alot more than 4 divisions

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 5:41:06 PM)
I'm not sure about Ceylon yet. I think he's coming and I think the Allies may have the means to contest the move, so I need something there and the Auasies and Americans offer the quickest and strongest help. I think I posted about a week or two weeks ago that I would know what what Steve was up to in about tend days. After seeing what has unfolded here the past few days and going back through the combat reports, etc., this is what I know and think: 1) All IJN fleet carriers except Junyo and two CVL are currently accounted for. 2) Akagi, Kaga and Ryujo (possibly joined by those flattops unaccounted for) are in NoPac. This is not enough to stand up to York, Sara and Hornet. This means the battle for North America is about to fundamentally change. No longer can Steve use his carriers as a "southern threat" to divide my attention on the West Coast. If I bring my carriers in to action, they can handle defense of the West Coast while the LBA handles the Pacific Northwest until that threat is addressed, which will take some time. 3) Does Steve realize this and is he even now withdrawing his NoPac carriers, planning to use them to assist with what he plans in the Indian Ocean? Possibly. If that were the case, I too could send my NoPac carriers elsewhere. I don't know which way I'll go yet on this. 4) No way Japan can invade SoCal in a risky but highly rewarding hope to take and destroy the big aircraft factories at LA and SD (assuming I keep my carriers in theater to ward off that threat). I can begin to drawn down troops and transfer them to Oz and/or India. 5) It might be possible for Steve to try a snap invasion of Coal Harbor using carrier and LBA for LRCAP. But the massive number of Allied LBA operating out of Vancouver, Seattle and Prince Rupert should make this very costly or perhaps impossible. 6) It is unlikely that Steve will pull his Indian Ocean carriers out of theater to switch up on me and invade Oz or West Coast. To do so would leave his Chittagong army isolated and out of luck. Much more likely that he would bring in reinforcements, including his NoPac carriers. If he has grander intentions in India, he might even now have a force gathering to move on Ceylon, Diego or possibly even a surreptitious move on Socatra. I'm not positive that Soryu is in the Bay of Bengal right now - my last sighting of here was at Cocos Island two weeks ago. I think she's in the Bay of Bengal, but Steve might be doing something fancy. 7) I think it will be tough for Steve to move on Ceylon with the forces currently at hand. He has at most four fleet carriers (well, Junyo is another that could possibly be around). That's not enough to tackle Ent, Lex, Formidable and Indomitable plus LBA, at least with an acceptable level or risk. So, if he's coming, he probably has to bring Akagi and Kaga, which will tkae weeks. By then I should be able to reinforce and reconfigure my defenses t make Ceylon a much stronger redoubt. He might be able to overwhelm me at some point, but I don't want to lose Ceylon. 8) Steve has many, many tank units committed in China, Australia region, and even Java. I think he'd want these in India if he truly had bold plans there.

Flicker -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 10:10:43 PM)
I'm really enjoying both AARs; it's great that both you and PH update often. As a fellow Southron, I'm pulling for you CR... Second JocMeister about reading AARs -and- drinking beer. Tonight's choices are Good People (AL) or Wild Heaven (GA); Oskar Blues (CO) just started distributing here in Ala so I might get some of that.

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 10:46:34 PM)
3/20/42 India: The KB bombed the "snot" out of Calcutta's airfield, destroying something like 40 aircraft. (I hope most of them were Blenheims, which seems useless even when captained by very skilled pilots.) The KB is close to Calcutta. Chittagong fell readily. An IJ paratroop drop behind Calcutta at Jamedspur (spelling?) failed. The Allied carrers will take station between Attu Atol and North Male Island until they recover their strike aircraft, which will take some time. Bombay has 400k supply; Karachi has 250k. Another 250k is inbound from Capetown. So the supply system is running well and should be safe for awhile even if Steve has big plans for India. Does He Have Big Plans? I'm not sure. He may just be interested in NE India to help him deal with China. China: The time to pucker is here. 26 IJ units across from the Chinese army just north of Lanchow. I have 1650 AV present with 200 about three days away and another 800 or so about a week or so out. The latter probably won't make it in time to lend a hand unless my Lanchow troops prove valiant. It's a critical battle. If they are overwhelmed and retreat, I'll surely lose hundreds of squads. Then I probalby won't have enough left, even with the approaching reinforcements, to adequately defend Lanchow. The 1650 AV currently in the hex gets a x2 defensive multiplier (for rough terrain). With the multiplier, the Chinese adjusted AV of about 3,200 ought to be sufficient to withstand and assault of six to eight divisions...maybe. Supply is usually full or close to full and the leaders are good. Experience is in the low to mid 40s, not great but not terrible. Steve's stack probably has to move in combat mode so that all his units will cross at once (my bombers hit his stack on occasion messing with any units in move mode). I know he has at least four divisions...but just how much is coming? North America: Another quiet turn. I haven't decided yet where to commit York, Sara and Hornet. Oz: Quiet.

Cribtop -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 10:59:47 PM)
Blenheims are actually quite useful - as training opponents for Japanese fighter pilots. [:D]

Encircled -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 11:03:27 PM)
Well, he's certainly not slowing down Surely if he's going for Ceylon though, he can't wait for the extra carriers or he loses his invasion bonus?

Cap Mandrake -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 11:09:42 PM)
A Bleinheim is just a Wirraway with extra drink holders.

JeffroK -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 11:10:12 PM)
CR, in counting your Indian Ocean CV check when the Brits withdraw, just so it isnt a surprise. Are you splitting up units to protect your rear in India, check for chokepoints which might get a visit from one of those famous Recon fireteams. I echo QBall's concerns about putting too much into Ceylon, it only blocks a move up to Bombay/Karachi. If he comes via Assam, Madras, Vizag you could have some of your better troops left behind. Speaking of which, whats happening at Singapore etc? Got any little AP or LCI which might be annoying? (Or am I mixing up things with QBalls game?)

Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 11:12:47 PM)
That's right, though I think big islands and continents aren't important for the invasion bonus. When you have a multitude of beachheads to choose from, you can usually find one that isn't strongly defended. I have just about decided to commit the two Aussie brigades to Ceylon. That would give Colombo roughly 500 AV, which would withstand an attack by at least two divisions for a long time. (Steve probably doesn't have alot of spare divisions left, so that's factoring into each decision now. If he commits two or three or four to Ceylon, that means he has next to nothing left for elsewhere). As a precautionary move, I've set many Chinese units in the Nanyang area, where I have 4,000 AV, to move mode and ordered them to head for Sian. This is just in case Lanchow falls in the next few days. If it doesn't, then I'll stand down these troops as, by then, strong reinforcements will begin to near Lanchow. But if Lanchow falls, I don't want the bulk of my army cut off far from the mountain passes that will bar the way to Chungking.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/3/2012 11:36:48 PM)
Seems to me that a paradrop behind Calcutta means Calcutta is one of the targets in the same way his airdrops to isolate Assam presaged a landing where such an effort made sense (Chittagong) A single Jap regiment at Dimapur can cut off 90% of supply reaching Ledo and the bases in hills on the Burma/India border. Maybe another regiment goes south to kill Akyab. That leaves 3 1/2 divisions to take Dacca and Calcutta which are the biggest point value in the area. Perhaps he just means to grab about 2000 pts, trap Burma Corps, cut off supply to China and then make a stand. He could then take Ceylon and Attu and have a nice picket line across the Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal. This would also free up troops that might otherwise have to guard what he gains in Northern Burma. He also would not need all 4 divisions to hold a line at this stage in the war. Some could then be used on the West coast on India.

crsutton -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/4/2012 3:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Chittagong isn't built up much and will fall the first day - 1500 AV vs. about 150 is no contest. I don't have much fuel there and the airfield is a level one. Further out on the line, most of the Burma Army is spread all over creation. But it can melt into the jungle if necessary - either making for the Ledo area or even towards China. Some I might try to extract by air transport. The reconcilation of where all the Japanese divisions are is important, becuase if, as I currently think, Steve has overloaded China, then that leaves him with precious few to use elsewhere. He needs alot more to really do damage in India (he has four; in my game with Q-Ball, the Japanese had as many as 20 divisions operating there). He can bring more to India, but probably not enough to threaten the continent. Same with North America - I don't think Japan poses a realistic threat even for some precision surgical invasions. That probably leaves three places Steve can now commit divisions - Oz, India and China. I feel pretty confident in my ability now to handle the former two. China is the real key. I even feel guardedly optimistic there, but that's the cirticial theater IMO. I have pretty much come to the conclusion that: China can't hold out vs good Japanese play. And, China only needs to hold out long enough. It is the one theater where the Allied player has very few options to change the outcome. It is also the one theater where the Allied player can be totally crushed and still have no real impact on his/her ability to win the game. If the commitment is made to take China then good Allied play is just to grind and make it take as long as possible. I spent two years of real time fretting about the loss of China in my campaign. Hindsight tells me I should have slept a little better.[;)]

JocMeister -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (8/4/2012 3:34:53 PM)
crsutton, That's a big relief to hear! [:)]

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