RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (Full Version)

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castor troy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/29/2012 2:54:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Steve won't invade Pearl Harbor at this late date. I also don't think he'll bring 10 to 12 divisions to Oz, but he could if he wanted to. He has roughly six committed to India. He doesn't need any in NoPac. So, if he pulls what he has available and takes a few others from China, he could come for Oz with that many. It would take more than one lift, but that would be fine for a long campaign for Oz.

As for splitting carriers, that's a silly comment. There are times to combine them and times to split them. Either way has advantages and disadvantages, but to say "never spit them" is ridiculous.


He could if he wanted? Ok, one takes an Army, invades a place to conquer it and then takes his troops, hands over the place to his enemy for free to attack another place because he wanted to do so? How much sense would it make to you if he would take his six divisions from India to invade Australia? It wouldn't make enough sense that Steve would do so. All I am trying to do is to take away all that panic you seem to have since day one of this PBEM and I wonder why this is so? [&:]

it may be a silly comment for you but silly or not, splitting your carriers in your game has been more counterproductive (deliberately not using the word silly) than anything else. You weren't able to achieve anything with those split carriers while you have to be still afraid of every pair of IJN carriers popping up anywhere on the map (see your own comments). Playing PBEM for over 8 years now and silly comment or not, those 8 years have proven it so many times that no comment can be as silly as splitting your carriers to give the enemy a chance to easily sink them for no loss. In your PBEM, I wonder if you think it was a good idea to split them while having to panic every second week about some small IJN carrier groups popping up somewhere, when you could have easily sunk halve of the KB by now teaching PjH once more how smart it is to run carrier groups around with 200 ac aboard. Knowing you haven't combined your carriers he can do that, smart.

I wonder what Steve would think about splitting KB into at least two divisions when he suddenly sees five USN plus one or two RN carriers taking position four hexes away of two or three IJN carriers. I'd say he wouldn't say that it was all that smart to do so.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/29/2012 3:03:42 PM)

5/31/42

It would make sense because Steve knows that India is armed to the teeth now and he probably surmises that Australia is weakly defended. I don't think he's going to shift gears at this point, but it was a possibility I wanted to keep tabs on.

North America: Quiet, though there is an enemy surface combat TF northwest of San Fran.

Pacific: KB Division B revisits Pearl Harbor. Oklahoma takes more damage but remains afloat. I still can't bring myself to look.

SoPac: Luganville has 190 AV now. 32nd Div. will begin unloading at Noumea in a day or two. Suva will have roughly 300 AV in three or four days. All of this means that the last gap in the "front lines" is being filled. From this point forward any move forward by either side will be moving into "Indian country" held by the enemy - from India to SoPac to NoPac, we've each eastablished ourselves.

India: Steve is reinforcing Jamshedpur, as expected. We're seeing more infantry divisions, which makes it increasingly unlikely that Steve will "go in big" anywhere else. He's also focusing all his bombing here, which leaves China unmolested, which is very good. Another KB raid over the Allied army at Asanol - between this one and the raid at Pearl, Steve lost 20 Vals and Kates.

China: No changes, which is good.

Victory Points: Even with Steve's successful raid on Pearl Harbor, the points differential is benefitting the Allies over the past couple of weeks. He's lost enough shipping and aircraft to make a difference.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/29/2012 3:54:20 PM)

Now, to address the "splitting of carriers" issue.

At the start of the game, I posted Ent and Lex around Timor. They saw a bit of action. From there I posted them near Cocos Island to protect that key island from what I figured was imminent invasion. (If you don't think Cocos is a key island, then you and I won't see eye-to-eye on this.) That patrol ended up lasting months. As Steve began to move into the Bay of Bengal, my carriers moved west. They did make a move north (joined by Hornet) from the vicintiy of Diego Garcia to engage, but Indomitable took a sub torp, so I pulled them back. Since then, they've been upgrading in the yards at Bombay, which they've just finished. As it turns out, these carriers saw little action, but they did watch over Cocos, Diego and Socatra, each of which I consider very important. Steve guessed or worried that my carriers might be present, so I think this played a factor in his decisions not to move on these bases.

Sara and York remained near the West Coast. At first, I intended to use them as security for the Aleutians, but when it became clear that Steve was moving there with overwhelming force, and then taking some of the key Canadian bases, I held them in reserve. Primarily, I wanted their fighters to serve as a strategic reserve for the West Coast industrail targets. Indeed, I ultimately stripped the fighters and sent them to LA and San Diego, where they remained for several weeks. The big threat I faced there was Steve using LBA to hit northwest USA bases while his carriers hit SoCal. This was a major problem that I countered with only marginal success.

So my carriers ended up on opposite sides of the maps, though for good reasons IMO. Consolidating them would take weeks, and I'm pretty sure that Steve would have suspected and detected such a move, so that he would have consolidated his own.

Now we've reached a new point in the game. Sara and York are in SoPac, probably enroute to Melbourne for upgrades and yard time. That gives me a better opportunity to consolidate somewhere down the line, though I would be shocked if Steve keeps his carriers separate. We'll see.

All this to say: I'm satisfied that splitting my carriers was helpful to the Allied cause.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/29/2012 7:05:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Now, to address the "splitting of carriers" issue.

. . .

All this to say: I'm satisfied that splitting my carriers was helpful to the Allied cause.


As one about to embark (today!) on his first PBEM turn I would only say on this topic:

(In my mental movie the speaker is Nemo, who for my purposes looks like Sean Connery as the senior Jones in that Indiana Jones movie)

"Never? Really, boy? Or always? Do you mean to say that in such an important area as strategy you would latch onto such a foo-lish word as "never"? Have ye learned nothin' from me in all my years of teaching?"



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/29/2012 7:09:40 PM)

Exactly.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/29/2012 7:20:31 PM)

The Corsairs are certainly awesome in blue. There were 4 at the Chino air show. Here are 3 in formation. The guy takes great pictures.

[image]http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Chino/DSZ_9938.jpg[/image]

http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Chino/Chino.html

Any chance of a screenshot of India. I've been busy for a month or two. Trying to catch up/



Galahad78 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/29/2012 11:28:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The Corsairs are certainly awesome in blue. There were 4 at the Chino air show. Here are 3 in formation. The guy takes great pictures.

[image]http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Chino/DSZ_9938.jpg[/image]

http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Chino/Chino.html

Any chance of a screenshot of India. I've been busy for a month or two. Trying to catch up/



As the saying goes, if it's beautiful then it will fly better!



castor troy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 2:08:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Now, to address the "splitting of carriers" issue.

At the start of the game, I posted Ent and Lex around Timor. They saw a bit of action. From there I posted them near Cocos Island to protect that key island from what I figured was imminent invasion. (If you don't think Cocos is a key island, then you and I won't see eye-to-eye on this.) That patrol ended up lasting months. As Steve began to move into the Bay of Bengal, my carriers moved west. They did make a move north (joined by Hornet) from the vicintiy of Diego Garcia to engage, but Indomitable took a sub torp, so I pulled them back. Since then, they've been upgrading in the yards at Bombay, which they've just finished. As it turns out, these carriers saw little action, but they did watch over Cocos, Diego and Socatra, each of which I consider very important. Steve guessed or worried that my carriers might be present, so I think this played a factor in his decisions not to move on these bases.

Sara and York remained near the West Coast. At first, I intended to use them as security for the Aleutians, but when it became clear that Steve was moving there with overwhelming force, and then taking some of the key Canadian bases, I held them in reserve. Primarily, I wanted their fighters to serve as a strategic reserve for the West Coast industrail targets. Indeed, I ultimately stripped the fighters and sent them to LA and San Diego, where they remained for several weeks. The big threat I faced there was Steve using LBA to hit northwest USA bases while his carriers hit SoCal. This was a major problem that I countered with only marginal success.

So my carriers ended up on opposite sides of the maps, though for good reasons IMO. Consolidating them would take weeks, and I'm pretty sure that Steve would have suspected and detected such a move, so that he would have consolidated his own.

Now we've reached a new point in the game. Sara and York are in SoPac, probably enroute to Melbourne for upgrades and yard time. That gives me a better opportunity to consolidate somewhere down the line, though I would be shocked if Steve keeps his carriers separate. We'll see.

All this to say: I'm satisfied that splitting my carriers was helpful to the Allied cause.



independent of the question if we agree on certain bases/areas to be important, the problem I see is that two or even three USN carriers can't do anything other than keeping away a non carrier supported IJN move. Ok, so you might have two carriers preventing the Japanese to take a single base in the Indian Ocean, but only preventing them doing so without carrier support. Now I am sure if your opponent would see that base as as important as you, wouldn't he just bring his carriers and invade the place while you could not do anything about it with two carriers? If he brings all his carriers you also can't do anything about it (well, you could try and usually end up losing to the IJN 1:1) so we are again at the point where all it achieved was to prevent an IJN invasion that isn't supported by carriers. On the other side, your opponent had carrier superiority on the whole map, while it was enough for him to run around carrier groups not even carrying 300 aircraft and this has lead to a lot of panic on the Allied side IMO. It even allows him to bomb Pearl Harbour in mid 42, even if it isn't more than a prestige attack.

Many of your enemy's operations would have been slowed down or wouldn't have been carried out the way they were if your opponent would have just known you would have 4 or 5 USN plus 2 RN CV in one basket, well being able to to take on everything not of the size of KB. And if he still would have pressed on the way he did, you would have had ample of chances to wreck havoc while not going in if you knew KB would be nearby.

There are of course tactical reasons why one would split his carriers at times but strategically seen, the best thing for the Japanese that can happen in 42 is the Allied player splitting his carriers into two or three divisions that are spread out all over the map because that asures the Japanese to have total superiority wherever a couple of his carriers show up, something I wouldn't dare if I knew I could face 400+ Allied carrier based ac any moment. But yeah, you achieved what seems to be a big thing for you, you prevented the invasion of Cocos Island, that might have never even be planned by the Japanese, which is something I do not know, for giving the Japanese total superiority on the whole map for 6 months (which they shouldn't have if they split KB).

It's absolutely ok to have different oppinions on this topic IMO and I hope you don't mind my comments, it's just that I think you put too much panic into your grand strategy and have too much of a view of the uber abilities the Japanese (independent of the skill of IJ High Command), which they actually don't have.



castor troy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 2:21:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Now, to address the "splitting of carriers" issue.

. . .

All this to say: I'm satisfied that splitting my carriers was helpful to the Allied cause.


As one about to embark (today!) on his first PBEM turn I would only say on this topic:

(In my mental movie the speaker is Nemo, who for my purposes looks like Sean Connery as the senior Jones in that Indiana Jones movie)

"Never? Really, boy? Or always? Do you mean to say that in such an important area as strategy you would latch onto such a foo-lish word as "never"? Have ye learned nothin' from me in all my years of teaching?"



Nemo was the first one to stand up if it comes down to play a game of how to exploit the game engine to the max, not how to play a game of good strategy, not even taking the word realistic in my mouth. Be it putting 1000 AA guns into the jungle of Burma, having 500 Lillies flying a 100ft airfield attack at night, creating hordes of uninterceptable Oscar kamikazes that invented the use of high altitude ballistic fighter kamikaze bombs or anything else (of that one could name probly two dozen more examples if one goes through an AAR of him) which is so far from realism, history or commone sense that it has barely something to do with "strategy" in a common way.

He's more of a beta tester, not a strategist. If he would find out that the best way (in the game) would be to operate carriers in single TFs without any escorts, flying his Cap at 40,000ft, having his SBD bombing from 100ft and TBF dropping torps from 30,000ft then he would do so as he has done pretty much everything that has been discussed on the forum as gamey, unrealistically or nothing else than being absurd in a game that is trying to simulate (kind of) the land, air and sea war in the Pacific of WWII. Wasn't he the first one to put 3000av into Palembang not caring about anything else on the map because he knew that without Palembang the Japanese already lost the war while his Army was eating and shooting oil products coming out of the Dutch refineries? One heck of a great strategy to name just one and realism is coming out of my a$$. Beta testing of game deficiencies, not a genius strategist. While I seem to remember he was the one who was fighting for a more realistic defensive armament of 4E? lol

None of Nemo's games had anything coming close to realistic behaviour, it has always been focussed on what have I to do to get the maximum out of the engine, no matter how absurd it may be thinking of real life. At least none of the games he did an AAR, not one and I think he pointed that out often enough giving his thoughts, I always found it funny that this was turned into "hey, what a grandious strategy". One of the reasons PjH and Nemo were matching perfectly when it came down to playing a game, none of the two were giving sh*t about realism as anything the engine allows was valid. IIRC my PBEM vs PjH saw him using 300 carrier based bombers on nav search as this was a better option to sink ships than flying nav strikes, which was the moment when I really knew what I was up to. Don't know if that strategy was invented by PjH or Nemo, fits to both of them. This was happening some four or five years before you joined the forum so you might not have the full view on things. And IIRC both PjH and Nemo were bitching about the absurd tactics and strategy both of them were using, bitching about what suited best into their plans of course, which I found to be topping everything else.



BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 4:32:54 PM)

Easy now CT. You may not like Nemo's use of the game features, but to deny his skills as a strategist because of it is not logical. After all, it was Nemo who guided Greyjoy's strategy in GJ's rookie AAR and it resulted in a huge turnaround in that game. I tend to think he is/was a professional military officer of high rank who knows all about stratgic thinking.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 5:43:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Easy now CT. You may not like Nemo's use of the game features, but to deny his skills as a strategist because of it is not logical. After all, it was Nemo who guided Greyjoy's strategy in GJ's rookie AAR and it resulted in a huge turnaround in that game. I tend to think he is/was a professional military officer of high rank who knows all about stratgic thinking.


Nemo is extremely well-read on strategy, especially Soviet, and has a very long history in wargaming fairly easily researched on the Net. I have done so using his real name. I've also looked up the titles of a few of his professional journal articles. Many relate to mental health issues commonly found in military environments.

Professionally, Nemo is a psychiatrist. To my knowledge he has not served in a military. I am open to correction on that of course. He has spoken here tangentially concerning his work, so I don't think it's a secret. (I know of at least one other shrink in the forum ranks.) Reading Nemo's posts also show how he tries, with varying degrees of success, to use his training to shape his games and his opponents. Anyone playing him would be advised to limit the e-mail contact they have with him during the game. Psyops is what he does, to a degree, in his day job.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 5:56:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Nemo was the first one to stand up if it comes down to play a game of how to exploit the game engine to the max, not how to play a game of good strategy, not even taking the word realistic in my mouth.

Nemo plays to a strict strategic model as he defines it. He also pushes the game engine to where it can be pushed. He never to my knowledge made any secret of that. You play him you should know what you'll get. He plays to win. He will do things to win many AE players won't. So what?

Be it putting 1000 AA guns into the jungle of Burma, having 500 Lillies flying a 100ft airfield attack at night, creating hordes of uninterceptable Oscar kamikazes that invented the use of high altitude ballistic fighter kamikaze bombs or anything else (of that one could name probly two dozen more examples if one goes through an AAR of him) which is so far from realism, history or commone sense that it has barely something to do with "strategy" in a common way.

You're arguing with the wrong guy with these lines. He does things like this, hyperbole removed. But he'd be the first to say that they are choices each with their own opportunity cost. He doesn't magically get more resources than you or I when he plays. He just chooses where, when, and how to concentrate them better than any other player I've seen. He makes these decisions with a strong macro model and a loss budget in mind. He adjusts well to opponents' counters. He doesn't cry over spilt milk.

He's more of a beta tester, not a strategist.

Well, opinions differ.

If he would find out that the best way (in the game) would be to operate carriers in single TFs without any escorts, flying his Cap at 40,000ft, having his SBD bombing from 100ft and TBF dropping torps from 30,000ft then he would do so as he has done pretty much everything that has been discussed on the forum as gamey, unrealistically or nothing else than being absurd in a game that is trying to simulate (kind of) the land, air and sea war in the Pacific of WWII.

Again, so what? If his opponent doesn't like it it's up to him to find counters, and especially to stop dancing to his tune on his schedule. When Nemo talks (incessantly) about OODA loops he means it. OODA loop theory can be criticized and has been in professional military journals as well as business organs, but it has a place in strategic planning and if an opponent isn't aware of what it is and how it can be used he'll be a puppet to Nemo's moves. Virtually no AE players open on the forum would have a chance to beat Nemo in a GC, EVEN WITH A PHONE BOOK OF HRs. I can think of a mere handful who would give him a game.





GreyJoy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 6:17:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Easy now CT. You may not like Nemo's use of the game features, but to deny his skills as a strategist because of it is not logical. After all, it was Nemo who guided Greyjoy's strategy in GJ's rookie AAR and it resulted in a huge turnaround in that game. I tend to think he is/was a professional military officer of high rank who knows all about stratgic thinking.



Sorry to be pedant here, but the strategic idea was all mine from the beginning. Knowing Nemo was a great strategist i had PMed him explaining my ideas for the operation in the Kuriles...and he agreed with me. I shared with him and with CR my plans, but they never suggested me the whole plan.
I'm saying this not to boost my ego, just because i don't wanna that Rader thinks, reading this, that he faced not me but Nemo or someone else




BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 6:43:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Easy now CT. You may not like Nemo's use of the game features, but to deny his skills as a strategist because of it is not logical. After all, it was Nemo who guided Greyjoy's strategy in GJ's rookie AAR and it resulted in a huge turnaround in that game. I tend to think he is/was a professional military officer of high rank who knows all about stratgic thinking.



Sorry to be pedant here, but the strategic idea was all mine from the beginning. Knowing Nemo was a great strategist i had PMed him explaining my ideas for the operation in the Kuriles...and he agreed with me. I shared with him and with CR my plans, but they never suggested me the whole plan.
I'm saying this not to boost my ego, just because i don't wanna that Rader thinks, reading this, that he faced not me but Nemo or someone else

Thanks for the clarification GJ - I was obviously under the wrong impression about Nemo's role and I am more in awe than ever about your turnaround in the game versus Rader. You have progressed so fast in your two AARs that you may well be playing Nemo next time! [:D]

Ok - enough hijack of this thread - the subject was splitting carrier TFs, not the grognards of the forum! [:-]



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (9/30/2012 8:38:34 PM)

Some very good comments here. I want to reply to several:

1. GJ is right on. He disclosed to me during the planning stage his idea to attack NoPac in his game vs. Rader. After he came up with the idea, Nemo came along and pointed out various things that he could/should consider.

2. I agree with Bullwinkle's assessment of Nemo. I believe Nemo is the best player out there with the possible exception of Alfred, who I also consider brilliant in the extreme. (I'm not saying there aren't others out there of that caliber, just that in the fairly confined AE world that I've moved in, those two are the best that I've come across.)

3. Nemo's shadow has hung over this game since before we began. I am nearly certain that Nemo would achieve auto victory against me in a Scenario Two match. In fact it might not even be that great a challenge for him. In part this is because he's very good. In part it's because I'm decent, but we're talking Magnitude 9 on the Richter Scale for him, Magnitude 6 for me. Thirdly, I think Nemo has me pegged psychologically. I think he knows just how I play and how to pull the levers that would allow him to beat me with a big assist from me beating myself. (I admit I may be giving Nemo too much credit, but this is my own frank assessment and should give you an idea as to my mindset.)

4. PzH is a Nemo accolyte (or, as Alfred has described him, "Nemo Light"). PzH is good and experienced and very aggressive. He knows Nemo very well and their have been on good terms a long time. When this game started, I assumed (though I wasn't certain) that Nemo would offer PzH advice and counsel. Since PzH is already very good, I felt there was a strong chance I'd be up against a Japanese auto victory. Now that we're six months into the game, I'm not at all certain that PzH has had any counsel at all from Nemo. But that's why I was so worried at the outset of the game.

5. With auto vic a distinct possibility in my mind, I elected to play a pretty soft defense, trading expendible real estate for time. Unless a Japanese player takes truly crucial terrain, anything taken that extends Japanese lines just becomes an impediment at some point in the game. Thus far my strategy has worked pretty well, IMO. Steve has moved far enough to bump up against a number of my redoubts, but hasn't thus far moved against any of them. Prince Rupert, Coal Harbor, Cocos Island, Diego Garcia, Socatra and the really key Indian bases (the Bombay to Karachi area) were territory I wasn't willing to surrender without a very strong fight. Thus far Steve hasn't moved against any of them.

6. Steve has taken some good territory where he has a chance to score big if he's still on the offensive. But if, as he's clearly stated, his major offensive phase is done (except in China), then he stopped way too soon. He had the table set, but failed to serve dinner. If he stops now, IMO Q-Ball pushed closer to auto vic than did PzH. But there's still some time for things to develop. We'll see.

7. I disagree with Castor. I split my carriers. Steve split his. He's had to be leary of coming too far forward anywhere, which has helped me alot. If I consolidated my carriers so that he did likewise, yes, he could strike hard somewhere, but nowhere else. I think, as the game, has played out, that the Allies have accomplished as much or more with the carriers split as they could have with them combined. THe most important thing is that my carrier fleet is intact, while Steve has lost at least one and probably two escort carriers. If I can keep that ratio intact, I'll be in good shape as we move into late '42 and early '43.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/1/2012 3:03:08 PM)

6/1/42 to 6/3/42

I'll post a screen shot or two later today.

North America: Big Zero sweeps over Victoria for several days. The Japanese come out ahead each time, but I'm willing to ride this out awhile on the supposition that fighting over my own bases at relatively long distances for Japan will ultimately work in my favor. CA San Francisco TF intercepts an IJN CL/DD TF just west of San Fran. My guys seem to have the advantage, but combat ends early and without either side suffering real damage.

CenPacific: KB circumnavigated Pearl and is currently moving NW near French Frigate. I think the KB hit Pearl five or six consecutive days. Oklahoma is still afloat. I haven't looked at her status since about day two, figuring it was so ugly it would be demoralizing. But she's hanging in there.

SoPac: At Luganville, two IJ CAs without escort bump into a stout Allied combat TF led by Indianapolis and Canberra. My guys have far more firepower, but lose the battle. Canberra goes under. Importantly, none of the transport TFs there are molested. The bulk of the reinforcements have landed now at Luganville (200 AV), Noumea (1,000 AV) and Suva (400 AV).

Oz: Quiet.

India: All Allied troops will depart the Asanol hex tomorrow. The Allies have a tremendous army spread over this region. Japan is reinforcing quickly, which means divisions are coming in that might have caused mischief elsewhere. I think we'll see a long sitzkrieg in NE India as both sides build up and await an advantage. This is okay by me. I'll build the bases I have and look for my chances to strike. Steve will have to keep a big airforce here or risk an Allied onslaught. That's good.

China: No changes.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/1/2012 4:00:06 PM)

The front has stabalized in NE India. Massed Japanese bombers hit any exposed Allied troops, so before the Allies can move forward again, we'll need to address the disparity in the air. So the Allies are building the airfields at Jamshedpur, Ranchi, Patna and further back. All of these can be built to level nine. The Allies also have alot of fighter and 4EB squadrons in India. As time goes on and as better aircraft come online, the Allies will eventually be in a position to contest the air.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/F4F2A05BEEA545C4B0E9E0365FDFE458.jpg[/image]



Encircled -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/1/2012 8:16:45 PM)

Quote from "Red Storm Rising"

SACEUR - "Looks like we've stopped them Joachim"

Joachim - "Ja! Now we start to drive them back"



adsoul64 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/1/2012 10:37:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Quote from "Red Storm Rising"

SACEUR - "Looks like we've stopped them Joachim"

Joachim - "Ja! Now we start to drive them back"


Great book!



pws1225 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/8/2012 12:11:40 AM)

Where is CR? There have been no posts in almost a week. Not like him at all.



princep01 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/8/2012 12:43:34 AM)

It has been awhile.  PZH may be tied up with family affairs and Canoe is likely tromping about in some Delieverance wilderness in Georgia.....and grieving the outcome of Saturday's football debacle for his beloved Bulldogs.



Cribtop -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/8/2012 1:48:24 AM)

Hehe, GO Gamecocks!!!



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/8/2012 4:11:05 PM)

We don't have television at our house, so most of the time we don't keep up with sporting events. However, a few times a year, my wife and youngest son will be away visiting grampa. That leaves me and oldest son, who enjoys football, at home. On such occasions, we sometimes visit a local restaurant that shows football games on the t.v. Such was the case this weekend. All the stars aligned. Son got off from work Saturday afternoon and big Georgia vs. South Carolina football game on t.v. starting at 7 p.m. So we head to the restaurant with high hopes for a great evening....and 15 minutes later the score was South Carolina 21, Georgia 0.

No fun! In fact, is was so not fun that on Sunday we repeated the sequence, this time getting to enjoy watching the Falcons beat the Redskins.

Don't ask me about the Atlanta Braves baseball game on Friday evening.....



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/8/2012 5:37:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Don't ask me about the Atlanta Braves baseball game on Friday evening.....


Are you talking about the most misunderstood rule in baseball? [:)]



JeffroK -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/8/2012 9:55:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Don't ask me about the Atlanta Braves baseball game on Friday evening.....


Are you talking about the most misunderstood rule in baseball? [:)]


On a recent trip to NZ I spend countless minutes trying to explain Cricket to a guy from Denver, too complicated....

Then an umpire calls an infield fly on a ball landing 20-30 metres outside the diamond, which game is more complicated?

PS, the ump wasnt moonlighling in the NFL a few weeks back??



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/8/2012 10:11:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Don't ask me about the Atlanta Braves baseball game on Friday evening.....


Are you talking about the most misunderstood rule in baseball? [:)]


On a recent trip to NZ I spend countless minutes trying to explain Cricket to a guy from Denver, too complicated....

Then an umpire calls an infield fly on a ball landing 20-30 metres outside the diamond, which game is more complicated?

PS, the ump wasnt moonlighling in the NFL a few weeks back??


[:)]

It's called the Infield Fly Rule, but it should be called the Infielder Fly Rule. That is the crux. Player, not location.

If the ingoing requirements of runners and outs are met, a fly which an infielder can catch by "ordinary effort" is an automatic out. Ordinary effort is in the judgement of the umpires. I don't know if there are inside rules on whether a 20-YO who steals 100 bases per year has the same effort test as a 35-YO retread first baseman with a gut the size of the beer keg he drank to earn it. But that's the test, not whether the ball will land on grass or dirt. And in this case the infielder was under the ball, established and ready to catch it, when he was called off by another player.

And then the Braves fans got to show how classy they are.[:-]



princep01 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/9/2012 1:06:02 AM)

Bullwinkle got the rule right.  I did not see the play when it happened, but if the IF was under the ball using "ordinary effort", IF fly is a correct call even if it is on the OF grass.  BUT, as one that has umped many games from Little League thru high school ball and softball, when it is 30 ft out there, the rule is seldom invoked.  When invoked in such circumstances, it will always bring a chorus of booos.  In Atlanta, where it is reputed that there might be more than one redneck about, it brings a rain of beer cans, bottles, disgusting paraphanalia and much bad-will.  It was a bad call in my view, but my-oh-my what a reaction.  That was disgusting.

Seeing the replay later, I would never have called an IF fly on that play.  Just one old ump's "judgement".



Skyros -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/9/2012 2:20:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

We don't have television at our house, so most of the time we don't keep up with sporting events. However, a few times a year, my wife and youngest son will be away visiting grampa. That leaves me and oldest son, who enjoys football, at home. On such occasions, we sometimes visit a local restaurant that shows football games on the t.v. Such was the case this weekend. All the stars aligned. Son got off from work Saturday afternoon and big Georgia vs. South Carolina football game on t.v. starting at 7 p.m. So we head to the restaurant with high hopes for a great evening....and 15 minutes later the score was South Carolina 21, Georgia 0.

No fun! In fact, is was so not fun that on Sunday we repeated the sequence, this time getting to enjoy watching the Falcons beat the Redskins.

Don't ask me about the Atlanta Braves baseball game on Friday evening.....

So sorry for the loss,but at least we let you score[:D]



Ingtar -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/9/2012 2:33:30 AM)

A coworker of mine is trained as an umpire. Ordinary effort does not include when two players are in the area to field the ball or the one player is still backing up.



JeffroK -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (10/9/2012 3:15:56 AM)

I would have allowed if landing on the dirt surrounding the diamond, in this case, it was well beyond that.

This was simply an umpires error, happens all of the time.

PS, played enough Baseball as a kid to know the rules and IMVHO this was not the intention of the rule (which was to avoid letting the ball bounce and create a double/triple play due to the forcing rules)
The SS screwed up and left it, the batting team should have been able to take advantage.

PPS, I think in Europe football teams would be heavily fined or worse for their fans behaviour plus not being able to control it within the more than 15 minutes it continued for.



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