RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/22/2012 1:10:01 AM)

That's pretty much the plan.

I'm thinking that I may rely on China to help defend India, while the USA contributes to Australia.

Some early Chinese units will be purchased and march across the border into India. If Chinese gets pressed hard, though, or if it appears Steve is coming hard from India, I'll begin a large air transport from Chengtu (not sure that's the right name) to Ledo.



crsutton -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/22/2012 4:06:45 AM)

You have about eight to 10 Chinese units that are yellow restricted and can be flown out of India if bought out with PPs. Put them all together and they equal about one full 800 squad corps so it is not much. Otherwise, everything in China is white restricted and has to walk out of China to India (if there is a way out) It takes time but as the Japanese player advances in China you will be faced with such low supply levels that your units will not take replacements and you will have about a million shattered Chinese infantry units that will need to be rebuilt. It took forever but I marched a lot of them overland to Mytikynia (sp) which I took back in late 1943. Supply will pull from India to there in the non monsoon months and you can rebuild Chinese units there. Those that I could fly out went to Calcutta. Bear in mind that the C47 will not carry the 105 mm gun so you may not want to upgrade the 75mm guns of those units you want to air transport.

If you have a HR against moving Chinese units out of India that are white restricted then you have made a bad deal and need discuss it with Panzer Hortland as you might just end up with a lot of useless fragmented units eating up your supply in the far Western corners of China. I would tell him that if Chungking falls or is surrounded then all bets are off as far as restricting units to Chinese borders. Something reasonable that will release you when you start to run out of Chinese cities.



Keifer -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/23/2012 1:26:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

You have about eight to 10 Chinese units that are yellow restricted and can be flown out of India if bought out with PPs. Put them all together and they equal about one full 800 squad corps so it is not much. Otherwise, everything in China is white restricted and has to walk out of China to India (if there is a way out) It takes time but as the Japanese player advances in China you will be faced with such low supply levels that your units will not take replacements and you will have about a million shattered Chinese infantry units that will need to be rebuilt. It took forever but I marched a lot of them overland to Mytikynia (sp) which I took back in late 1943. Supply will pull from India to there in the non monsoon months and you can rebuild Chinese units there. Those that I could fly out went to Calcutta. Bear in mind that the C47 will not carry the 105 mm gun so you may not want to upgrade the 75mm guns of those units you want to air transport.

If you have a HR against moving Chinese units out of India that are white restricted then you have made a bad deal and need discuss it with Panzer Hortland as you might just end up with a lot of useless fragmented units eating up your supply in the far Western corners of China. I would tell him that if Chungking falls or is surrounded then all bets are off as far as restricting units to Chinese borders. Something reasonable that will release you when you start to run out of Chinese cities.

crsutton, Sounds like something Hitler would have said.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/23/2012 5:00:06 AM)

12/16/41

I did something so reckless I should be discharged from the AE fraternity. I had promised PH a turn late this afternoon, but ran out of time due to several major commitments. Anxious to keep my word, I did the turn without watching the combat replay. I did have the benefit of the combat report. This is something I wouldn't do except under extreme duress of keeping a promise. :)

NoPac: Nothing happened today. Nobody bumped into anybody. I'm wondering just how much trouble is lurking out there. I will say this: surrendering the Aleutians to small, weak enemy invasions would be bad. But having Japan commit carriers and BBs is a bit of an Allied victory. I'd rather have 'em there than in the DEI.

SWPac: You know you've entered a new realm when transiting the Torres Strait becomes a major operation. I am pretty sure two IJN RO-class bus are there (an AVP was sunk by one today). My carriers should pass through in two days. They will follow a small ASW force and two other ASW forces will patrol the straits. The carriers will refuel tomorrow or the next day.

Eastern DEI: Lots and lots and lots of Japanese shipping just north of Ceram. I know the Mini KB is out there and at least two BBs. Steve is not leaping forward in reckless frolic, because he probably suspects Force Z is out there - and it is. I want to slow Steve if I can, because he's putting some effort into this push, but I don't think the KB can be a factor for some time.

Western DEI: Things have slowed temporarily. The Mersing Gambit is in play, but Steve's force is probably only 300 AV strong. I might see if I can push them back.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/24/2012 10:10:30 PM)

I face two critical questions today. I've already entered the orders, but still have about 1/2 hour to re-think them.  What do you think?

1.  Big IJ landing at Ambon covered by several BBs plus the Mini KB to the rear.  Force Z, with a good commanding officer and full ammo, is within striking range.  Do I commit her in an effort to strike while I have a chance (Ambon will fall tomorrow, so Japan will have a level four airfield in play beginning the day after tomorrow).  Or do I withhold Force Z in hopes that two American carriers can reach theater in about four or five days, thus giving the Allies a combined force of some strength?

2.  The Aussie ASW TF in the Torres Strait found one of the enemy RO-class boats psoted there.  One of the Aussie ASW sank as a result.  I have another ASW TF set to arrive tomorrow (three DMS).  The two American carriers, following yet another ASW TF (this one with two DMS) will transit the strait during nightime phase day after tomorrow.  I can definately make good use of the CVs in the eastern DEI to slow down Japan a bit, but am I taking too big a risk in transiting the straits against a picket of subs (believed to be two RO class)?



Keifer -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/24/2012 10:22:41 PM)

1.) If Ambon is going to fall anyways, what is the point of attacking? What do you gain by attacking? Kill a few marus? What do you have to lose? POW & Repulse. I'd wait until the US CV's arrive and put POW with Enterprise and Repulse with Lexington. If the Japanese attack your Carrier TFs, there is a good chance some of the bombers will go after the BB/BCs and it might save a CV.
-It might be worth sending in some British CL/DD to Ambon if they're with Force Z in range. They'd be worth risking for some Marus or a chance of putting a Torp into a Japanese BB.

2.) Run the Straits. You've done your due diligence with the ASW task forces to clear the way. If the CVs get hit, they get hit.



Cribtop -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 1:09:35 AM)

Unless you believe you'll nail several IJN capital ships in an exchange battle. Exchanges at Sea are good for the Allies. Problem is, if you don't destroy stuff in the night phase and stick around, the enemy CVLs may send you to the bottom free of charge, so to speak. Keifer's point is well taken. Ask yourself whether you plan to use your CVs aggressively or simply snipe around the edges. If the former, surviving bomb magnets may come in handy. Then again, again, remember that IJN CVLs tend to carry Kates and no Vals (not that Kates can't carry bombs once the torps are out).



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 1:57:53 AM)

12/17/41
 
Malaya:  Three IJA regiments involved in a belated Mersing Gambit attack in the wooded hex and get a bloody nose.  Steve hasn't closed the trap and the road remains open. He'll have to reinforce or bomb heavily if he wants to push the Allies into Singapore.

Java and Vicinity:  An IJ fast transport invasion of the base east of Batavia runs into the Batavia CD unit (that was a luck placement for me).  He may or may not have enough to take the hex.  The Allies buy a decent Dutch unit at Soerabaja and begin loading (set to "no supply") for Cocos Island.  I'll feel better if I can get that back door secured against a blitz attack.

Eastern DEI:  Japan is landing 4th Div. at Ambon and will take the base tomorrow.  Per the counsel of the Peanut Gallery, I elected not to commit Forze Z.  That TF will retire south of Timor, rendezvous with CVL Hermes, and see if the cavalry (Ent and Lex) will show.  Koepang has 100 AV and plenty of mines.  Not enough to constitute a fortress, but no longer a pushover.

Torres Strait: An RO-class boat tangles with the Aussie ASW minesweepers and sinks one.  As stated in the post above, the Allies have configured their forces to make the best of a forced passed through the straits.  This will take place not next turn, but the night phase of the following turn.  The Pucker Factor will be in effect.

NoPac:  I-15 sinks AO Brazos near Anchorage.  I'm hoping that suggest to Steve that the Allies had some major stuff going on up here, when actually I'm pulling back.  Saratoga, currently near Prince Rupert, will make for Seattle and pray that the line of picket ships is positioned correctly and is accurately reporting no signs of the KB.  Japan has already taken Adak, Amchitka and Attu.



Keifer -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 2:47:24 AM)

Just to be clear, I think BB's in CV task forces are great torpedo magnets. They can take the hit much better than the CV.



BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 4:42:59 AM)

Target speed is a big factor in sub attacks. Go full speed and the sub:
- is less likely to spot you at all
- if he does spot you, will have less chance to get in position
- if he does get lucky enough to shoot, is less likely to hit

And if you are unspotted, you may be able to do a little mugging of foreign tourists ...



adsoul64 -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 8:16:59 AM)

[OT] Keifer, great boxshot of my second game. Good old times... [8D]



SuluSea -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 1:47:25 PM)

Regarding China- the three units at Tuyun can combine to the 6th Chinese Corps (96ish starting AV) it's a cheap buy that you can afford on the first turn and it's one of the big units if built up to full strength . I change them to NCAC and start them marching to Burma on the first turn. Also all the 5th Chinese Corps from 11  Group Army to be bought head to the border NE of Lashio. Anything else you plan to buy I'd suggest you get them started to the border as well so you can get out before Burma is no longer in Allied hands.

I'll add be careful in selecting what to buy for intstance the three units that combine to form the 66th Chinese Corps at Chungking can be purchased but withdraw about 14 months in.



Lomri -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 2:07:51 PM)


I wonder if he'll be reading the tea leaves about why you have ASW TFs operating in the Torres strait. If you are lucky he caught them heading east, but if he thinks they were moving west it is obvious they aren't fleeing ships. Suppose he could assume they are escorts for a re-supply of Darwin, but if those subs never saw a transport at all...




BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 2:12:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I'll add be careful in selecting what to buy for intstance the three units that combine to form the 66th Chinese Corps at Chungking can be purchased but withdraw about 14 months in.

Why would a Chinese unit withdraw with Japanese troops all over their homeland? To go plant the rice crop? To harvest it? To reduce the supply demands?



JocMeister -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/25/2012 6:24:59 PM)

Getting a few Chinese units out might help a little with supply. But as crustton says there are very few units you can actually buy out. I think its mainly the units with the prefix "new".



BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 2:27:05 AM)

Oh, I'm not questioning the movement of units into Burma, I'm questioning why the game mechanics require a withdrawal of a Chinese unit in 14 months. With British and American forces the war in Europe is the reason for some units withdrawing on a schedule. But where would a Chinese unit reappear if it was withdrawn for other duties? Italy? San Francisco?

Edit - spelling correction.



CRations -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 5:37:45 AM)

It sounds like you've already decided not to force a naval confrontation. Do you have any B-17 bombers in the area that can grind down the airfield? I was just thinking that you can destroy the airfield before he can move his aircraft in as you should have a turn or two free of enemy CAP - yes?


CR



SuluSea -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 1:46:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I'll add be careful in selecting what to buy for intstance the three units that combine to form the 66th Chinese Corps at Chungking can be purchased but withdraw about 14 months in.

Why would a Chinese unit withdraw with Japanese troops all over their homeland? To go plant the rice crop? To harvest it? To reduce the supply demands?


I'm not a developer but I'd guess the unit withdrawls (like some others of both sides) to form incoming reinforcements. If you ask in the proper form I'd bet one of the people responsible has a good explanation.




BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 2:47:32 PM)

You're right - I've gotten so used to getting answers from the experienced players that I haven't even thought about asking developers. I'll try that.



crsutton -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 4:04:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

You're right - I've gotten so used to getting answers from the experienced players that I haven't even thought about asking developers. I'll try that.


Well, probably to reflect that many Chinese units were disbanded for a variety of reasons. Could have been broken up to build up other under strength units. Many units were in essence the private armies of quasi warlord/generals left over from the Chinese Civil War. chiang kai-shek was a highly suspicious man (not without reason) and considered loyalty a much more important trait for a general to have than skill. He replaced a lot of generals and most likely some of the units were done away with out of concerns for loyalty. You can't think about the Chinese army in the same terms as a western army.



BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 4:24:15 PM)

Thank you crsutton. That's the kind of perspective I was looking for. I know virtually nothing about the Chinese military and political situation in the forties.
I did ask the question on the developer's forum so we'll see what their rationale was. FAIK it could just be a game balance thing to give the Allies another problem in China when they are beginning to get stronger elsewhere.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 4:40:01 PM)

Ya think Steve suspects Allied carriers might choose to transit the Torres Straits?

Is it worth it? Yes - assuming I don't get a carrier or two torpedoed in the process. Whether my flattops get through undetected or detected would be very helpful. It would slow Steve's aggression in the DEI considerably until he could bring up his own carriers. They could be on the way, or they could be involved in something else far away. So gaining carrier superiority, even if temporary, would be a big help.

But is it worth taking the chance? Chime in now - I have about one hour before I issue orders and end the turn.

If I proceed, the carriers will follow two ASW Tfs - one comprised of three DMS and the second to be two or three DD taken from the two carrier TFs. A third ASW TF - the remaining Aussie minelayer - is also present.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/F92DADD149E044BE8C572FE7ECAAF9BB.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 4:44:31 PM)

Set them to full speed and all TBs and DBs to ASW and give it a go! Who dares wins! [:)]




Historiker -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 4:44:33 PM)

quote:

But is it worth taking the chance? Chime in now - I have about one hour before I issue orders and end the turn.

It defenitly is! The two carriers can take on MKB and come out on top!



BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 5:25:39 PM)

The northern channel has no detected subs. I'd break away from the ASW units and run through it full speed.



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 5:45:13 PM)

Indeed, I routed my TFs through the northern channel.  I did not set to "full speed," though it might have been wiser to have done so.  I did set the Devastators to full ASW and the cruiser-patrol aircraft to part ASW and part search.  As you can imagine, I'll be nervous in getting the next turn back.  I am sure that Steve's email will "let the cat out of the bag" if his ambush works.  Here's hoping it doesn't.



BBfanboy -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 6:02:36 PM)

Crossing my fingers and eyes for you ....[sm=dizzy.gif]
Rotsa ruck!



Walloc -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 6:04:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Indeed, I routed my TFs through the northern channel.  I did not set to "full speed," though it might have been wiser to have done so.  I did set the Devastators to full ASW and the cruiser-patrol aircraft to part ASW and part search.  As you can imagine, I'll be nervous in getting the next turn back.  I am sure that Steve's email will "let the cat out of the bag" if his ambush works.  Here's hoping it doesn't.


CR, while i understand the need to sight/supprese the subs. Im wondering about the choice of using TBDs/crafts that in effect at this point in time and place can only come from CVs. Considering ur excellent skills in decieving/information warfare this sounds like an odd attempt to signal the exact locations of 1+ CVs. The chance is there for not getting sighted but msg of TB planes sighted by the subs is a give away.

What gives?

Rasmus



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 6:11:31 PM)

I can make effective use of my carriers in the eastern DEI whether they are sighted or not, but it's getting them there that's topmost in my mind.  Cruiser floatplanes are responsible for all those sub sightings, so Steve (who was already obviously alert to this possibility) should have his spidey sense tingling like crazy.  I just want to slow him down in the DEI, and having him aware of my carriers is almost as effective as not.

On a related subject, while Ent and Lex (hopefully) will be handling the DEI, my plan is to have Saratoga (currently SW of Seattle) join Yorktown (soon to arrive) to handle SoPac. 



Canoerebel -> RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) (4/26/2012 10:00:43 PM)

12/18/41 and 12/19/41
 
American Carriers:  Lex and Ent transit the Torres Straits without incdient (one of the most exciting non-events, and one of the most compicated tactical maneuvers, that I can recall).  There were no encounteres of any kind, so as far as I know the transit wasn't detected.  Some of my ASW will continue to patrol the straits in order to keep up appearances.  The two carriers will refuel NE (true) of Darwin and then see what's happening.  There is a large number of enemy shipping at and near Ambon, including three BB and a Mini KB.  I will have to be judiciious in employing my carriers - limited sorties, time required to replenish, and the paucity of SBD replacements mean that the flattops should be used only if the opportunity is too good to pass up.

Gulf of Alaska:  I got a sighting of what seems to be the full KB in the Gulf of Alaska, due south of Kodiak quite a distance.  There is no place I'd rather have it.  That is at least two week steaming distance from the DEI.  Meanwhile, Saratoga is down near San Fran and moving south.  She'll rendezvous with an oiler somewhere in deep SoPac.  I've also set up my West Coast fighter squadron on a combination of training and CAP.  I wouldn't put it past Steve to raid the coast.

SoPac:  Louisville is guarding Tarawa and has twice driven away a small enemy TF comprised of a DD and a troop transport.  I'll give it one more day and then I'll back off a bit, as Steve might send in a larger TF to deal with the situation.  Meanswhile, a CA/CL/DD TF is departing Pearl tonight to take on duty as America's South Seas fleet.

Oz:  In the belief that Japan probably won't move on Oz until the eastern DEI is squared away, I will spend some PP to transfer a few units from Java to Koepang, Timor.  I'd like to get perhaps 250 AV in place.  That combined with carriers and combat ships should allow the Allies to slow or halt Steve until he brings in some carriers (or takes the time to establish forward airfields, which will....take time).

Malaya:  An Allied army will attack the Japanese army that tried to implement the Mersing Gambit.  I'm not optimistic about defeating the enemy, but it's worth a shot since the enemy failed in its own attack a few days ago.

Burma:  I'm going to try to dislodge the enemy at Meiktila.  I'm not optmistic there either.

China:  I'm going to try to dislodge an IJ divsiion in the open south (true) of Chengchow.  The Chinese have 800 AV, so there's a chance.

Philippines: Japan is gobbling up the vacant bases in Luzon, but I don't detect a major move on Manila/Clark Field yet.



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