RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now?

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Klydon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/12/2012 9:30:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EisenHammer quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon Part of the reason to play the game is to do something different, not replay history. Just saying... If that is the case, then maybe the Germans shouldn't have a first turn surprise advantage. [;)] Careful, there are a few around here that probably think that is a seriously good idea. [;)]

EisenHammer -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 5:41:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon quote: ORIGINAL: EisenHammer quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon Part of the reason to play the game is to do something different, not replay history. Just saying... If that is the case, then maybe the Germans shouldn't have a first turn surprise advantage. [;)] Careful, there are a few around here that probably think that is a seriously good idea. [;)] Serious… think about it… would you be as stupid as Stalin, too think that the Germans would not attack… after all the intelligent reports from so many sources say that the Germans are going to attack.[:)]

RCHarmon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 3:55:38 PM)
Sure, begin the game sometime in 1940 and then the Soviet player can start building his army then. Full range to get rid of crummy equipment and only the good equipment being built at optimum levels. Get a large army trained and filled out with SUs. Maybe even a preemptive attack. Sure, do it. Go ahead and make the ultimate Soviet game. I wouldn't be surprised.

AFV -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 4:36:50 PM)
A big seller for sure. Bought by 20 or so Sovietphiles, who only play the AI because none of them want to be the Axis, lol.

EisenHammer -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 4:38:28 PM)
LOL... I was joking... At first... But I find it funny that pro-right wing Axis loving people flip out when you bring up something that not historical to their views. But it ok... for them to change history whenever they want. Like the weak Russian winter offensive. quote: ORIGINAL: RCH Go ahead and make the ultimate Soviet game. I wouldn't be surprised. BTW… I gave up years of my life fighting against the soviet game. So you can stick it up your ass if you think I am a communist. You f*ing **.

RCHarmon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 4:49:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EisenHammer LOL... I was joking... At first... But I find it funny that pro-right wing Axis loving people flip out when you bring up something that not historical to their views. But it ok... for them to change history whenever they want. Like the weak Russian winter offensive. quote: ORIGINAL: RCH Go ahead and make the ultimate Soviet game. I wouldn't be surprised. BTW… I gave up years of my life fighting against the soviet game. So you can stick it up your ass if you think I am a communist. You f*ing **. A bit testy this morning? When have I ever accused you of being a communist? Everyone is tough online.

EisenHammer -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 4:56:34 PM)
It's cool. I'm fine. Just don’t call me a communist.[;)]

RCHarmon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 5:22:36 PM)
The post I made was a general post and not directed towards any one individual. There is a underlying debate on this site between the Soviet side and the Axis side. I feel the Axis side is unfairly suppressed. Either way, it should never get personal. BTW my family has fought in every major war the U.S. has been involved in going back to the Revolution. We have always fought within the U.S. Army. I am no Axis fan boy. I would just like to see a historically believable representation.

Walloc -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 5:55:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCH The post I made was a general post and not directed towards any one individual. There is a underlying debate on this site between the Soviet side and the Axis side. I feel the Axis side is unfairly suppressed. Either way, it should never get personal. Hi Rich, When u say u feel the axis side is being suppresed do u mean, as in ppl being "pro" one or other side/percieved so, on these forums or do u mean sides in game? Kind regards, Rasmus

RCHarmon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 7:25:51 PM)
I made a post a long time ago about what if the Axis player is able to do better than history. Immediately, it was labeled another Axis whining post. I found that other players were likewise labeled because of similar posts. The atmosphere has changed a bit since then, but at times hostility seems to be directed to players who post about Axis concerns. I used to believe that the game was geared towards the Soviet player and I thought that because, among other things, that first released 1941 blizzard was really an equalizer and punishing to the Axis player regardless. I have since come to understand that because of the dysfunctional supply system the 1941 blizzard is used as the means to "set things right". Manipulating if you will. It does seem strange that every dev decision leans towards the Soviet. This point is highly debatable. Lets look at the units that are withdrawn, but were really destroyed at Stalingrad. The unit gets withdrawn with full TOE when in actuality (if you want to get technical) those men were marching to Siberia. Withdraw an empty shell ok, but leave the men and experience and moral behind. Every decision seems to be this way, never what the Axis player would chose. I know the devs have explained why they have done certain things. When playing Axis, against a human opponent, I just scratch my head and just continually ask myself why certain dev decisions were made. I know what they have explained, but there certainly must be a better way. The whole C&C business needs to be rethought-out and the air war etc........ The released 1941 blizzard is now gone. It cannot be said by me that the game is heavily Soviet based as the Axis player now retains greater offensive power. The Axis player now has greater ability than was historically possible, in my opinion. So much of the failings of the game again comes to the supply situation as a major discontinuity in the game. I don't think either side is happy about how the game plays out. I have limited experience with the Soviet side. I have played some smaller scenarios and have started 3 1941 campaigns against the AI in order to start to learn the Soviets. In a lot of ways it is really neat to play the 1941 campaign as Soviets. You get to design and build up an army. If I continue to play this game it will be as Soviets as I find playing the Axis frustrating. Even the Soviet side is hampered especially in the early game as they are just too weak. Weak and disorganized yes, but the Soviets were able to put up a few fights along the way. The historical capacity of the southern front to resist is not there. The Lvov pocket discussion that is ongoing shows game failing. I don't see any struggle between forces with this game. Mostly it is bulldozer one way and then bulldozer back again. I expect a great struggle on the eastern front. This is not what we have.

Walloc -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/13/2012 8:57:28 PM)
Hi Rich, Ok thx for answering. Kind regards, Rasmus

76mm -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/14/2012 12:13:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCH I don't see any struggle between forces with this game. Mostly it is bulldozer one way and then bulldozer back again. I expect a great struggle on the eastern front. This is not what we have. Yeah, I tend to agree. The only question is when who is bulldozing who, and when.

EisenHammer -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/17/2012 7:09:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCH I made a post a long time ago about what if the Axis player is able to do better than history. Immediately, it was labeled another Axis whining post. I found that other players were likewise labeled because of similar posts. The atmosphere has changed a bit since then, but at times hostility seems to be directed to players who post about Axis concerns. I used to believe that the game was geared towards the Soviet player and I thought that because, among other things, that first released 1941 blizzard was really an equalizer and punishing to the Axis player regardless. I have since come to understand that because of the dysfunctional supply system the 1941 blizzard is used as the means to "set things right". Manipulating if you will. It does seem strange that every dev decision leans towards the Soviet. This point is highly debatable. Lets look at the units that are withdrawn, but were really destroyed at Stalingrad. The unit gets withdrawn with full TOE when in actuality (if you want to get technical) those men were marching to Siberia. Withdraw an empty shell ok, but leave the men and experience and moral behind. Every decision seems to be this way, never what the Axis player would chose. I know the devs have explained why they have done certain things. When playing Axis, against a human opponent, I just scratch my head and just continually ask myself why certain dev decisions were made. I know what they have explained, but there certainly must be a better way. The whole C&C business needs to be rethought-out and the air war etc........ The released 1941 blizzard is now gone. It cannot be said by me that the game is heavily Soviet based as the Axis player now retains greater offensive power. The Axis player now has greater ability than was historically possible, in my opinion. So much of the failings of the game again comes to the supply situation as a major discontinuity in the game. I don't think either side is happy about how the game plays out. I have limited experience with the Soviet side. I have played some smaller scenarios and have started 3 1941 campaigns against the AI in order to start to learn the Soviets. In a lot of ways it is really neat to play the 1941 campaign as Soviets. You get to design and build up an army. If I continue to play this game it will be as Soviets as I find playing the Axis frustrating. Even the Soviet side is hampered especially in the early game as they are just too weak. Weak and disorganized yes, but the Soviets were able to put up a few fights along the way. The historical capacity of the southern front to resist is not there. The Lvov pocket discussion that is ongoing shows game failing. I don't see any struggle between forces with this game. Mostly it is bulldozer one way and then bulldozer back again. I expect a great struggle on the eastern front. This is not what we have. Nice…Post…I can't find a thing too rage about it. I hate labels.

EisenHammer -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/17/2012 7:42:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCH It does seem strange that every dev decision leans towards the Soviet. This point is highly debatable. Lets look at the units that are withdrawn, but were really destroyed at Stalingrad. The unit gets withdrawn with full TOE when in actuality (if you want to get technical) those men were marching to Siberia. Withdraw an empty shell ok, but leave the men and experience and moral behind. Every decision seems to be this way, never what the Axis player would chose. This is misleading…. If you look you will find that these are units that were rebuilt. And they were units that would have been withdrawing anyway or never have been rebuilt in the first place because Stalingrad would have never had happen. Something had to fill in for the Allied invasion of Italy.

Aurelian -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/17/2012 1:22:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EisenHammer quote: ORIGINAL: RCH It does seem strange that every dev decision leans towards the Soviet. This point is highly debatable. Lets look at the units that are withdrawn, but were really destroyed at Stalingrad. The unit gets withdrawn with full TOE when in actuality (if you want to get technical) those men were marching to Siberia. Withdraw an empty shell ok, but leave the men and experience and moral behind. Every decision seems to be this way, never what the Axis player would chose. This is misleading…. If you look you will find that these are units that were rebuilt. And they were units that would have been withdrawing anyway or never have been rebuilt in the first place because Stalingrad would have never had happen. Something had to fill in for the Allied invasion of Italy. 8. Rule Change (section 7.6.2.2) - Changes to Command Capacity: a. Stavka and OKH now have infinite command capacity (they will never be considered overloaded). This is shown on screen as a command limit of 999. b. Soviet Army Command Capacity is changed as follows: 6/41-8/41 – 24 9/41-3/42 – 21 4/42-9/45 – 18 c. Soviet Tank Army Command Capacity is changed to 15. 9. Rule Change (section 21.1.10.1) - The Soviet Manpower Multipliers in 1943, 44 and 45 are reduced by 5 (so they are now 35, 30 and 15 respectively). Including changes in previous versions, the Soviet manpower multiplier table should now read 50,40,35,30 and 15. 10. Rule Change (section 7.6.4) - The Command Range of Soviet Army HQs is now 10 (was 15). And the we have the no units can go static in 1941. Yep, all this leans toward the Soviets. 8a favors both sides.

Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/17/2012 3:55:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EisenHammer It's cool. I'm fine. Just don’t call me a communist.[;)] You don't know how bad I want to call you a COMMUNIST LEFTY!!!!! Good thing I won't huh? Just kidding...couldn't resist.[:)]

76mm -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/17/2012 4:19:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aurelian Yep, all this leans toward the Soviets. 8a favors both sides. Not to mention the older stuff, like weakening the blizzard and nerfing forts. I think most players would agree that these changes were welcome and necessary, but they were hardly pro-Sov.

RCHarmon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/17/2012 5:47:18 PM)
A lot of changes have happened in the game. To not make the changes would have been pro Soviet. The Soviet posts help my argument by backing the argument up. The game at release heavily favored the Soviets. With the first released blizzard and forts the Soviets had huge advantages. To the point where there wasn't much if at all an axis 1942 offensive. The changes has adjusted the balances where the Axis is now actually in a stronger position in 1941 and 1942. It is the games designers who have stated that they are not going to make a fantasy German game. I don't want that either, but good arguments can be made that if the historical mistakes are not made a vastly different Eastern Front comes into play. The "what ifs" if you will. This argument is discarded out of hand and is the most disturbing. The issue with reconstituted divisions is one for debate. Both sides have a good argument if it is looked at fairly. I used it to make the point that the Axis position (in the games development) was rarely taken. I'd like to pose a question. We have a less severe blizzard now and how historical is it? Not much because it is a "fudge", but how many German divisions were captured historically during the blizzard? Some divisions were reduced or very nearly destroyed, but how many were actually captured? For the Soviets were any divisions captured? We have history to tell us that "Shvestov's 29. Army was encircled and destroyed in mid February, yes. The Sovs lost 6 divisions outright and 4 more scattered (in game terms presumably routed.) 4800 POWs and 26,0000 enemy dead." ----this is a quote from Flaviusx. We regularly see German divisions captured in the games' blizzard. One AAR the Axis player lost 20 divisions. How many Soviet divisions have been captured during the games' blizzard? You can make the argument that historically the Soviets took 6 million casualties and in most games the casualties are not that high, so therefor must contain more offensive capability. I can argue against that because we know some Soviet infantry men went into the blizzard offensive with 3 bullets each. If you add more men then must you further distribute the limited ammunition?

Aurelian -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/17/2012 10:16:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 76mm quote: ORIGINAL: Aurelian Yep, all this leans toward the Soviets. 8a favors both sides. Not to mention the older stuff, like weakening the blizzard and nerfing forts. I think most players would agree that these changes were welcome and necessary, but they were hardly pro-Sov. Some of those I forgot about. But until my current game, I never lasted that til blizzard.. :)

76mm -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/18/2012 5:27:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCH To not make the changes would have been pro Soviet. The Soviet posts help my argument by backing the argument up. No, our posts refute your posts, not back it up; your previous statement (quoted below) is clearly false: "It does seem strange that every dev decision leans towards the Soviet." Frankly, I'm struggling to understand how anyone can argue that a game in which Lgrad and Moscow now fall regularly is somehow pro-Sov. I think that the German side is indeed harder to play, but that a German player that knows his business can carve up virtually any Sov player. Upon release, the game was flawed in many ways, many of which indeed favored the Sovs, but since then the devs have clearly been trying to "fix" the game, with many of the resulting changes favoring the Germans. I understand that many German players don't like some of the design decisions, and don't really blame them, but to attribute these design decisios to some kind of pro-Sov bias seems rather ridiculous to me. Sometimes a design decision is just a design decision...

RCHarmon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/18/2012 5:49:34 AM)
My post probably isn't clear. The patches have drastically changed the game. Maybe fewer words will be better. I agree with your post. Meaning that we are generally in agreement. I'm trying to understand volume, center of mass, etc in third dimension with three integrals right now and maybe my thoughts were not properly conveyed.

morganbj -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/18/2012 7:44:57 PM)
It seems to me you'd better re-read his posts. You missed the point entirely.

RCHarmon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/18/2012 9:15:20 PM)
I get the points, I know the arguments. We all know the failings of the game. If there is a disagreement on some minor point it is simply my opinion then. It is a minor opinion that doesn't even hold water anymore. I could further write something up, but why? The game isn't going to change and peoples opinions are not going to change either. The game has gone through some drastic changes. The balance of the game has drastically changed in 1941 and 1942. It doesn't seem very pro-Soviet to me anymore. The Axis rolls over the Soviet and then the Soviets roll over the Axis. That's the game. That has always been the game. The date and time of the "switch" is the marker that is being moved around.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/19/2012 1:46:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon Not sure what Flaviusx edited or perhaps it was moved here from a post in a AAR so the AAR would not get hijacked would be my guess. The OP (for this thread) isn't mentioning anything new. I am sure there are a ton of Russian players who would enjoy escaping with a good chunk of forces that start in the border areas between the swamp and the Rumanian border, especially mountain units and then be free to do whatever they would like to do, including running as far away as they possibly can. I am sure the German players would enjoy a historical minded Russian who decided to stand and fight all along the front too, but I don't see that happening either. It just highlights the issues with the logistics in game on both the German and Russian side and until that is addressed (along with other things), the game is going to have issues. Want a more "historical" game? Play against the AI. I stood and fought in a reasonably historical and linear fashion without chequer boarding as the Soviet player twice vs. Carnage and held Moscow and Leningrad through to the sprint thaw of '42 on both occasions. It can be done, although we were both relative novices. If the attacker also plays in a realistic fashion, the '41 game plays out quite convincingly, although recent changes are not considered here. My problems primarily related to early '42 when the Sovs turned to butter.

Klydon -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/19/2012 9:24:20 PM)
I watched those two AARs between you and Carnage with great interest. I think you mentioned the key to part of it and that was Carnage was a novice German. The second thing for Carnage is his main effort in both games (especially the second game) was never in the north and center, so it is not a surprise you were able to hold both Leningrad and Moscow. I also agree with your point about the Russians being butter in early 42, but that is fairly historical given how worn out they were from not only the 41 campaign, but also the winter offensive. The south was especially vulnerable due to many of the new formations getting cut to pieces in preliminary German counter attacks before Operation Blue started. From a Russian standpoint of view in terms of moral and experience, I think this is fairly accurate in most cases, although Russians have a tendency to have more reserves in game than in history. The real difference is many German players will create a strategic reserve over the winter by handpicking elite moral units out of the line in the late fall. The size of the reserve can vary, but is typically from 10 to 20 units worth. The fact is the Germans didn't have this to throw at a very weak Russian line in the spring in the historical campaign and some would argue, they would not be able to get a force like this into place in the line and make sure it was topped up in terms of logistics given the condition of rolling stock/locomotives, etc in the Eastern theater during the last of the winter and into the spring. The game as currently constructed allows it and the result is an armies worth of elite moral Germans just cutting any section of the Russian line to pieces unless the Russians get a hint of what is going to happen where and pull back in time.

vicberg -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/19/2012 10:14:02 PM)
The game is too extreme across the board. If you get two players of disparate abilities, the game quickly and irrevocably becomes a lopsided affair. A few encirclements by the Germans after the first turn in 41 snowballs into the Soviets not being able form solid defenses or counterattack in the 41 blizzard or possibly complete surrender. If the Soviets don't make a mistake and the Germans can't encircle or capture production, they face a red steamroller in 42. Throw mule into the mix, with the right hands, and the game's almost unplayable, it seems. CV's swing around far too wildly. FOW is too extreme leading to 80 to 1 odds and then suddenly a 1-4. Hasty attacks should come from 2 hexes, air combat is a total mess, yada, yada, yada. I've already posted about this a few times today. The game hopefully will go the route of WITP, which means they will work on slowing it down. That means 1) production, especially soviet or giving the germans the same control over production, 2) supply, 3) less swings on CVs, 4) fort building, 5) toning down blizzard, 6) beefing up Leningrad, 7) removing Lvov opening and not blowing the game for the germans, yada, yada, yada, . Doubtful that any of this will happen, but for me, I'm going to stop playing the game. There a few really good German players who have developed winnable tactics. For me, I don't feel like being frustrated for the next 6 months to learn these tactics. Because it's too extreme, it's too unforgiveable, and therefore a frustrating affair.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/21/2012 9:28:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AFV A big seller for sure. Bought by 20 or so Sovietphiles, who only play the AI because none of them want to be the Axis, lol. I generally play as the Soviets vs. the AI, but my main complaint is that the Axis AI is not aggressive enough. I want it to push me to the gates of Leningrad and Moscow on Normal (i.e. without a-historical power-ups) not stop halfway. Only when that happens will I consider the game as actually ready to go on sale.

karonagames -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/21/2012 10:14:39 AM)
You will have a long wait, Joel has stated many times that Challenging and Hard are the settings needed to get the offensive sides aggression levels up. One of the best games I had as Soviet against the AI was the Road to Moscow on Hard. Really scary!

vicberg -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/21/2012 4:47:56 PM)
quote: Frankly, I'm struggling to understand how anyone can argue that a game in which Lgrad and Moscow now fall regularly is somehow pro-Sov. I think that the German side is indeed harder to play, but that a German player that knows his business can carve up virtually any Sov player. Leningrad is usually empty by the time it's taken, so the impact is negligable. A good Soviet player will prevent Moscow by using the logistical dead zone in the south to put out light resitance and move everything in front of Moscow. Even if Moscow is taken, which I did in one game, it still didn't prevent an 8 million man army against me in 42. As long as the Red Army isn't decimated in 41, taking Moscow and Lgrad may not be enough to have a competitive 42. Without mules, it's not possible for a German player to carve up a Soviet. A good carpet or checkerboard will stop the Germans cold and it will get worse as more Soviet reinforcements arrive. By good carpet/checkerboard I mean that in addition to using terrain, especially for the large checkerboard stacks, the entire carpet or checkerboard moves back as as whole, preventing encirclement, until there's enough Soviet troops to stack heavily along the entire Moscow front. Against a Soviet player fighting forward, the German can carve up the Soviets, without mules. There's not many Soviets players fighting forward anymore for that reason. Use mules, and you are correct, the Germans can carve up the Soviets.

76mm -> RE: Is the 1941 campaign Whack right now? (4/21/2012 5:46:53 PM)
Well, I agree with you on many points, so I won't argue with you. I would, however, say that Lgrad is usually empty because it is indefensible against a good German player, so there is no point to lose troops there too. And while I agree that a German has to be good to beat the Sovs, I don't think that muling is the only winning tactic.

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