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krull -> ok thats enough (1/18/2001 8:04:00 PM)
Ok matrix. Ive even done as asked buy people on the CL forum tried there favorite games out CC FF demo and games. And all i see is a lack of respect and basicly we dont care CC is better attitude.IF they cant be bothered to try Spwaw out why should we bother asking ? about or suggesting game improvements. Yall i like but i get the intense feeling of Make the most happy rantings over there. i think Ill just stick to this forum and others. People who have tried to voice ideas get told we slamming a game and get slammed back. So why wast my time that i could be playing Spwaw or Some other nice game argueing with people who have already decided there way is right and No other is good enough. Hope yall get the game to eb best yall can and they way yall want it. Me Im gona quit talking and wait and see. I dont have patience to argue anymore with guys who KNOW whats best. Even if they never tried anything else. Good luck Im gona go back to Calling WB names while dieing in his sceniros and campaigns. [This message has been edited by krull (edited January 18, 2001).]

Charles22 -> (1/18/2001 10:24:00 PM)
krull: I found it a bit odd, that at one time some CC fan said that we were the newcomers, as though SPWAW wasn't a part of Matrix before the idea of CL, and their coming to that forum came along. Some of them seem to have the idea that Matrix's bread and butter has come from them, and that we're interlopers or ancient. I don't understand that thinking, because I don't know how they can ignore the fact that many SPers have known Matrix far longer than they have. Perhaps their only claim to being the veterans for Matrix, comes from their having been part of a CC forum (I know, it doesn't make sense), and that they were the first to make comments on CL. If that's the deal, big deal, so they beat the SPers by a few days to that forum. If such childish reasoning is behind the one poster's claims to veteran status, I probably beat them all to the forum, for I probably saw it within a couple hours of it going up, I just never made any early comments, and I sure wasn't going to post so as to be childish enough to stake SP fan claim to veteran status by being the first to post there or make it dominanted, altogether, by one poster or faction.

Mark Ezra -> (1/18/2001 10:46:00 PM)
I observed a very similar problem develope on the BTS/CM boards during the beta testing days. CC'rs just were certain their gaming method (RTS) was the only way, ect. While a number of thoughtful threads developed, it seemed an equal number of "CC Rules!!!" comments just started flame war after flame war. By the way: some CM folks went on the CC boards with bashing in mind as well. These people were taking to task by the BTS folks. CL is a project that ALL SPWAW players should be following and making suggestions about. CL seems to want to include RTS features. Who better than CC guys to get imput from. Those of us who play both CM and SPWAW will want to comment on the wego systems and Matrix proposed hybred. If we don't talk about it than Matrix won't have the needed imput to design a game that will do what we want it to do. I don't like to argue on the net, nor defend my views on gaming...good lord, it's only about what I LIKE in a game. I can respect others to LIKE something else. I think it's very important to read and contribute to CL and let the moderators deal with the flamers quickly and decisively

Charles22 -> (1/18/2001 11:35:00 PM)
Mike Ezra: Personally, I don't know how anyone got the idea that CL "was theirs". From best I can see, based on Paul's comments, it's a completely new game, though it's burrowing from the best of both factions, with doubtlessly many new ideas of it's own (having many more ratings for individual armor places is certainly one!).

Warhorse -> (1/19/2001 12:16:00 AM)
Hello all, I've been to the forum over there, and yes, the comments do tend to be more "childish", however it is my understanding that as a general rule, the age group for the CC is younger than SPWAW, this will happen. CL will be "everyones" game, we have had some flames here in the past too, and misunderstandings, but overall a very friendly forum, a real joy to be a part of! Don't let it get to you folks, just please give us input to what you would like, and let the comments, if negative, fly off your shoulders, we need everyones support in this, not one group or the other...EVERYONE [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Thanks. ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Tankhead -> (1/19/2001 1:29:00 AM)
Hello Everyone! Mike is right on this point, Matrix needs everyone input on CL. Of what I understand CL is more like the board game Squad Leader than CC. So do like I do everytime I read a post and see CC I replace it with SL [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] works for me. It is very important for all of us to say are 2 cents on CL. The immature folks on CL forum will find the force one day, that is the Matrix force and lets not forget that the forum they came from was totaly different than the Matrix forums. They just need a bit of time to realise are civil and mature Matrix is. It is are duty to teach the way to those immature ones, to make them realise that at Matrix it is worth while to communacate with everyone. Mind you there will always be the few that will never find the Matrix force. For us to point are view on the CL forum even though we might get flame by the CC crowd is the difference between them and us mature folks. We had bad apples on this forum in the past and they either found the Matrix force or they whent back to the news group forum they came from. So folks let show how mature we are to those CC folks and put in are 2 cents. Tankhead ------------------ Rick Cloutier [email]rcclout@telusplanet.net[/email] Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources http://members.tripod.com/tankhead__1

Mark Ezra -> (1/19/2001 1:42:00 AM)
Charles....I couldn't agree more. Matrix is creating a game on it's own merits. As it happens many of the matrix crew are well known to the SP community. But the connection, I expect, ends there. My only point is to be as supportive as possible to the CL team.

Paul Vebber -> (1/19/2001 2:03:00 AM)
We are basing the game on Firefight which is 'real time" so that is likely where the CC camp gets the idea it is "more inherantly theirs". This should not worry you as what they do with the game in RT mode will have no effect on what you can do in turn-based mode. I don;t think anyone would argue withthe fact that CC has better graphis, we are leveraging their streght their. We are adding additional detail to SP:WaW combat models - we are doing the bes twe can to marshal the strengths of both games where they shine! THis isn't about "us and them"...RT or Turn-based we are trying to give you better grahics, better combat detail and more flexibility. Its ambitious and will likely take a few releases and several years to fully "get there" but we are convinced that the 2D top view tactical game can be brought to a new level. Don't give up! I will be starting "game system specific" threads for comment and hopefully discussion their can be done independant of choice of play style :-)

Bonzo -> (1/19/2001 3:00:00 AM)
If we only went places where we got a warm welcome from all, the D-Day landings would have been at Brighton. While we don't need to go pick fights, it is important that the things that are important for you are considered for inclusion. Also, the CL group is going to be your pool of opponents when it comes time to play the game, so we best hash out are differences & try to make a few friends. ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://nwbattalion.tripod.com E-mail [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

AmmoSgt -> (1/19/2001 3:38:00 AM)
Bonzo i can take thier whining on a development forum ..but gawdsa'mighty can you imagine what they would sound like after they got their clock cleaned .. i can skip that part

pops -> (1/19/2001 4:14:00 AM)
Krull for one thing...lighten up these are just games...for an other thing have you thought that "CCers" may enjoy SPWAW as well...I know I do and I guess you would consider me a "CCer" seeing as how I enjoy that as well (before I even knew of SP)....this knd of divisivness is not called for....I see pretentiousness from people you would call "SPWAWers" as well...just lighten up man.....

krull -> (1/19/2001 4:41:00 AM)
pops ya hvae some good posts so ill answer ya. I like both my self. I just enjoy turn based better. But every time i asked a ?' some one would start ranting. Most or many who never tried anything else. I personaly think CC is a nice game but to me it has low replayabilty Thats all i relay dislike about it. I like SPwaw SP1 SP2 SP 3 Heck i liek alot games talon soft stuff ETC. I dont like people comeing across like they know everything and there way is right or nuthing.I dont liek when some one asks us nicely for input about what we liek or dont then have to listen to people say we are wrong. Hell i been playing Many RtS games and turn based before most of these on the forum where born. I buy just about every war game that comes out. I even saved my old Tandy and IBM models just to play older DOS dependent games. I do not sell or throw away games. I save them and replay unless they have limited atraction to replay they then Gather dust. You may consider me a SPer what ever. But I Played C since they day it came out. And every copy inbetween including Extra stuff from webpages and CC forums. Thing is you ask some ?'s or voice an opnion Now and ya get heat for it. READ my posts on CL forum I Even suggested alot things from CC would be nice.But instead of hmm nice and some nice replys or even suggestions about stuff i proably didnt rember. i heard ranting. HAHAh I am chilled out. I will be 62 in about 6 months. HAHAH i highly doubt im upset over a game. I get upset of desrespect when i show respect and get none in return. All im saying is most of my ideas and suggestions are posted. I have nuthing left to say. And im tired of hearing complaints or even remarks like you just made. I'd dratehr spend my time having fun. By all means any that wish to suggest stuff go head. Personaly I careless about what type of game it is RTS or Turn or Both. I care about accuracy and detail but not pretty pictures. Come to think of it i even have dogs of war and ground control here on the shelf now those are some real arcade games HAHAHA. I never Say somethings bad till i try it and even then I may say a certain thing about it i dont like. But over all most games have something i Do like. So post away help them make a better game i voiced my ideas thoughts and worries. Aint much else i can do. But i can go back to playing instead of wasted time argueing with People i dont know and frankly with the way they treat honest ?'s could careless about. Id drather be figureing out how to Retreat before those dang Russkies Force a draw again in victors. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] hah Lets all play and have some fun.

Don -> (1/19/2001 4:42:00 AM)
That's one of the frustrations, pops, and I think that you are an exception having played both games. Yesterday when we suggested that CCers who hadn't tried SPWAW should do so, we got the response that "I don't need to try SPWAW to know that turn-based is bad". Huh? How can you intelligently compare what should be included from both games if you haven't tried one of them? I myself fired up CC5 last night and did a DDay invasion just to compare the two games. I also have CC1, 2 & 3. You are definitely correct when you say the divisivness and pretentousness are not called for (from either side). Closed-mindedness is also a big problem - "I won't even try THAT game". But remember guys - there's alot of SP people working on this project - the SP side will not be forgotten. Keep giving your ideas! Don

pops -> (1/19/2001 6:37:00 AM)
Yes I certainly know how it is to get fired up about a game you have a passion for...sometimes you have to remember you are feeding the fire and step back (been there myself). I do like both games....I'd be happy to see simply a new SPWAW with better graphics....I'm happy with the gams as is as well (enjoying it more than CC presently)...Matrix could hardly sell it now that it's been given away though so a new thing is called for...even if for just making a new thing..the creative folks that they are I'm sure it will have more in it than you like about CC (or dislike for that matter)...I think CC2 was the most immersive and am quite dissapointed with CC5 right now...but not from a grog point of view...what ever else happens we'll still have SPWAW anyway so it can't be all bad!

Commander Klank -> (1/19/2001 7:24:00 AM)
I've played the Real Red version of CC3 online for over two years. I enjoy the excitement and challange of real time playing. Unfourtunatly most (but not all) of the online players there now are into fighting ladder matches. Its been my personell experiance that most are into powergaming and not interested in any historical value or accurcy of the game. Its a pitty most are obsessed with winning (don't get me wrong I like to win too!) to the point of were the game just isn't enjoyable playing them. I still have CC3 loaded on my computer but I rarly play it on line anymore. I only play people I know are interested in wargaming not powergaming. I got burnt out fighting Tiger tanks, rocket launching halftracks, flamethrower tanks and SS infantry all the time. I'm sorry if this started to sound like a flame on CCers but its not. Its a flame on only a certian type of CCer.... [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] One thing to note is most "good" CC online ladder players play on the same maps all the time (couse they have too! and yes I know thier making more). I think alot of them would have a hard time fighting on the differnt maps and terrain we fight on all the time (I don't know about CL maps). They also know how to fight with only 15 units! Something we SP players would laugh at; unless it was like 15 Tiger tanks...(8-o Oh and not to sound a bit behind the power curve or nothing but were is CL at (the download) anyways???? Thanks for putting up with my rant...LOL Commander Klank

Bonzo -> (1/19/2001 7:56:00 AM)
It is a bit early in the design cycle to be looking for a demo yet. A look at the type of things that the design team is asking suggests that there are a lot of key game issues that have not firmed up yet. As this will be a comercial, for $$ game, releasing an early, half built, beta demo would not present the game in a fair light & cannot help future sales. Do it soon, but do it right! should be the motto. I trust that Matrix will not release a demo until the game is pretty much knocked into shape & getting close to release. ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://nwbattalion.tripod.com E-mail [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

Tombstone -> (1/19/2001 9:05:00 AM)
I like both games. They each have something significant and important to contribute to the future of wargaming. Complaining is unecessary... if a person is into a game they play a lot its good that they are into it. I'm against narrow-minded approaches. Who gives a crap about what is weak in CC or SPWAW? At this point in the game we need to be thinking about what their best points are, and make sure we let Matrix know what it is about these games that appeals so much to their, typically, respective players... and the ones that like both. Unfortunately I don't have the time right now to talk about any of them... argh. Tomo

Gunner Wingate -> (1/19/2001 9:41:00 PM)
This post has been removed by popular silence... [This message has been edited by Gunner Wingate (edited January 19, 2001).]

Alby -> (1/20/2001 6:40:00 AM)
Originally posted by Gunner Wingate: Good points. SpWaW: easy - there is lots of info on WW2 weapons, ta da...! CC: It' a visit to Fantasy Island or West World (film with Yul Brynner), where (in this case) miniature robots put on a show for you to make feel like a hero without you getting hurt. You can see (somewhat accurate) models of vehicles, guns and men, and direct them in battle. You get to use those thinking skills which no-one recognised in you at school or LIFE and which you are sure were in another time and place MORE IMPORTANT, than adding up or kicking a ruddy football! SPWaW: God! If I could keep track of statistical minutiae that well I'de study to put it to remunerative use in a bank, or the Stock Exchange - or a software company. :-) GNR. Unhingedgate LOTS OF INFO ON WW2 WEAPONS IS ONLY GOOD POINT FOR SPWAW????? HMMMMM....Better play it me thinks or try it out again. [This message has been edited by Alby (edited January 19, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Alby (edited January 19, 2001).]

Gunner Wingate -> (1/20/2001 4:40:00 PM)
I thought some might hold that hammy outburst against me. :-) I have tried SPWaW (ver 4.5) and it is a well presented game but 'not my cup of tea'. Sincerely, it seems I haven't the level of patience required to enjoy it. SPWaW (need a keystroke macro for these abbreviations) is fantastically detailed, in all but graphics. Some of us need one-for-one graphical representation to help us into the game. Beyond that, stopping the clock to resolve every fire/move turn detracts, IMHO, from the appearance of a battle in progress - it's a continuity thing. BTW, SPWaW approach is possibly more educational than CC - esp' of late. I am already benefiting from its documentation. Eg, I had never really considered CC's OOB, but now it dawns on me that the action is (depleted) mixed company level. I am grateful for the mental stimulation. I am currently reading three WW2 books at once. Nothing heavy, just eyewitness style accounts. These days they are the only books I finish. :-) BTW#2, just cos I type posh don't mean I am, no sir. GNR. w Hey, I'm a Matrix vteran ... how'd that happen? [This message has been edited by Gunner Wingate (edited January 20, 2001).]

krull -> (1/20/2001 8:19:00 PM)
Yep Gunner. I like both but im a detail nut. CL would make a rts game more than an arcade from sound of it. Lets all wait and hope. And thru some RTS some consider non arcade where planning means very little. And all the equipment is almost generic thats a arcade. In my opinion. CC had some nice stuff but it was msotly about graphics and required very little skill just rigth units at right place and hope computer made good rolls. MOST of the time very few times did careful plannig and manuver matter that much. And yes i trie dit VS people vs its built in games etc. Some of its elements and SPwaw's added to gther WOULD be very very nice. And maybe i wouldnt feel like i had to click those men there in 2 seconds then fly down to bottom of screen and click them with in 5 seconds. Lets cross fingers and hope yes [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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