Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (Full Version)

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jwduquette1 -> Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/26/2012 5:47:05 PM)

I finally found an opponent with the chutzpah to continue playing WiTE beyond the first few turns of the blizzard. We have actually gotten to mid-1943. I just noticed in the BUILD NEW UNITS options for urban hexes the option to build Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades. Looks interesting -- and new for me since I havent got this far in the game before.

For the few people out there that have actually gotten far enough into the game to have this build option, what is your take on the usefulness of these engineer units. These are not SUs -- they are actual combat units like tank brigades or infantry brigades and such. I assume they provide Engineer Support when attacking fort hexes, and presumably kick up entrenchment\construction rates for units stacked with them. But in the attack, stacking one engineer brigade in a hex means one less infantry corps in the attacking stack\stacks. And I can attach Sapper Regiment SUs directly to Infantry Corps which both increase entrenchment\construction rating of the infantry corps as well as increase the Engineer Support value when the corps attacks an entenched hex without dealing with the three unit stacking disadvanatge associated with Sapper Brigades.

Is it worth building these units? Or should I stick to building sapper regiment SUs?



Q-Ball -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/26/2012 6:58:53 PM)

Don't build them. Don't build any Brigade-Sized units for that matter (unless it's to later combine into Corps).

You are better off just building hordes of Sapper Regts and attaching them to everything.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/27/2012 2:23:13 PM)

The only reason not to build Brigades is the stacking rules it seems. Because they are units on the map and the sapper regts have no stack value.

Brigade size units should offer some benefits and just stating do not build for stacking reasons alone indicates to me something is wrong with this aspect of the game.

The fact is the soviets had tons of Brigades...These assault Engineer Brigades it seems were quite important certainly in my HPS PZC MiNSK 44 they are very useful.



Q-Ball -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/27/2012 2:24:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

The only reason not to build Brigades is the stacking rules it seems. Because they are units on the map and the sapper regts have no stack value.

Brigade size units should offer some benefits and just stating do not build for stacking reasons alone indicates to me something is wrong with this aspect of the game.

The fact is the soviets had tons of Brigades...These assault Engineer Brigades it seems were quite important certainly in my HPS PZC MiNSK 44 they are very useful.


That is the reason, stacking limitations. If stacking was by # of guys and not units, they would be good builds, along with many Brigade sized units

But the Soviet army is all about mass, so they don't fit with that when there are stacking limits



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/27/2012 2:37:49 PM)

I accept that in the game

But the Soviets had these units, lots probably and in dense areas of the front llike in front of 78 Sturm in Minsk / Bagration, the assualt units were specially trained, had flame tanks and flail tanks- They were needed when fort levels are high. They would be fools to do that in this game so somehow the stacking rules are distorting historical fact. When that happens I lose a bit of interest - I still like this game its got all the qualities for a classic Eastern Front but somehow it is still a bit of an odd shape trying to fit into a round hole.

Maybe Brigades need some re think , for both sides.

How about assault Engineers, regts and Brigades, KG etc should count as 1/2 a stacking point? Would you build them then?



Joel Billings -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/27/2012 5:01:33 PM)

Don't forget that brigades can be put in reserve mode in the attack and kept a hex back from the attacking units. Brigades have a better chance of being added to a combat than divisions. Of course this may not be as good as building support units (the brigades do take up command points), but just wanted to point out that there is a way to deal with the stacking issue.



jwduquette1 -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/27/2012 9:20:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I accept that in the game

But the Soviets had these units, lots probably and in dense areas of the front llike in front of 78 Sturm in Minsk / Bagration, the assualt units were specially trained, had flame tanks and flail tanks- They were needed when fort levels are high. They would be fools to do that in this game so somehow the stacking rules are distorting historical fact. When that happens I lose a bit of interest - I still like this game its got all the qualities for a classic Eastern Front but somehow it is still a bit of an odd shape trying to fit into a round hole.

Maybe Brigades need some re think , for both sides.

How about assault Engineers, regts and Brigades, KG etc should count as 1/2 a stacking point? Would you build them then?


Good points.

Perhaps brigades should have the ability to be directly attachable to a Corps – like instead of being able to attach three SUs to a Corps you can attach a single tank brigade or engineer brigade sized combat unit to a Corps. The Brigade sized combat unit is than listed under support units for the Corps. It reappears in an adjacent hex if the Corps breaks down to Division sized units. This capability would short circuit the lack of practicality to these units because of the 3 unit stacking limit rules and would probably go a long way toward Russian side players actually building all those brigades that the historical Red Army contained.

Same again for German Divisions and German Brigade and Regiment sized independent combat units. For example allow the Grossdeutchland Regiment to be attached directly to the 1st Panzer Division.

I'll probably build one or two Sapper Brigades just to experiment with. I’ll fiddle with them as direct assault units – suffering the stacking issue. And try placing in reserve like Joel suggests. But unless through game experimentation I begin to see some clear advantage to building these Sapper Brigades, I doubt I'll build more than the one or two experimental models.



jwduquette1 -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/27/2012 9:25:37 PM)

I'd also add that a similar issue will arise in WiTW, albeit not to the degree of the Red Army of WWII and plethora of brigade sized units in the actual Red Army. The various UK armies, British\Canadian, had various independent brigade sized units that will be somewhat less useful because of the 3 unit stacking limits. In addition -- aside from a number of independent infantry RCTs -- the United States Army was fond of breaking armored divisions into combat commands and parceling out combat commands to infantry divisions. Allowing brigade and regimental sized units to function as a support unit attachments to divisional sized combat formations might be a work around.



jaw -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (4/27/2012 9:55:50 PM)

We're already a step ahead of you. For WitW we have added the capability to define combat units smaller than divisions (i.e. brigades & regiments) as "Multi Role" units. Multi Role units can change back and forth between combat units (on map) and support units (off map) attachable to divisions. This capability probably won't be in WitE until the 2.0 version.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (5/7/2012 7:11:56 PM)

Sounds good...



timmyab -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (5/10/2012 4:09:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwduquette1
Perhaps brigades should have the ability to be directly attachable to a Corps – like instead of being able to attach three SUs to a Corps you can attach a single tank brigade or engineer brigade sized combat unit to a Corps. The Brigade sized combat unit is than listed under support units for the Corps. It reappears in an adjacent hex if the Corps breaks down to Division sized units.
Same again for German Divisions and German Brigade and Regiment sized independent combat units. For example allow the Grossdeutchland Regiment to be attached directly to the 1st Panzer Division.

This is the way to go I think, except that I'd allow the brigade to be detached from it's parent unit at any time, not just when it's broken down into it's constituent divisions..
I'd also like the option to attach SUs directly to divisions to allow a certain amount of customization.



delatbabel -> RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? (5/19/2012 2:29:21 PM)

I have just noticed that brigade sized assault engineer units now appear as support units I can build in a Soviet HQ.

Is this new (in 1.06.06 or so)? This is around mid November in a 1941 GC. I don't recall seeing them before.

The RR construction brigades and the sapper regiments are still there, but there is also this new engineer brigade.



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