Where is antitank infantry ? (Full Version)

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moet -> Where is antitank infantry ? (4/29/2012 9:51:28 PM)

I see that there are no antitank teams in the PC game, as well as in the board game. How infantry can fulfill his role against tanks if it doesn't have antitank capability even at very close range?
In the actual PC game, any tank standing in woods is virtually indestructible by enemy tanks. I had a Panzer III ADJACENT to a stationary T34 having 0% hit chance against it !
If infantry can not destroy it either, a lonely tank can slow, even stop, a whole army for many rounds.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/29/2012 11:02:45 PM)

That is not a true statement moet.

If you look at the screen below you will see that the Pioneer squad does indeed have an armor attack capability of 3 (blue colored attack value).

[image]http://i.imgur.com/rjd03.jpg[/image]




junk2drive -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/29/2012 11:18:24 PM)

Maybe he is talking of a different game?

Unless he is on the beta team, the game is not released yet and he states he is playing it.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/29/2012 11:32:02 PM)

Possibly. I just thought he might be playing the boardgame.

I wanted to clarify that though. Yet, like most games and real life, infantry best tread lightly around a tank, especially in the open. Look what a mobile killing platform they are. One must protect their tank busters, whatever they are, or risk overrun.

mo reb



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 1:34:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: moet
I see that there are no antitank teams in the PC game, as well as in the board game. How infantry can fulfill his role against tanks if it doesn't have antitank capability even at very close range?
In the actual PC game, any tank standing in woods is virtually indestructible by enemy tanks. I had a Panzer III ADJACENT to a stationary T34 having 0% hit chance against it !
If infantry can not destroy it either, a lonely tank can slow, even stop, a whole army for many rounds.


A few comments on this:

The game is set in 1941, which means that squad-level infantry anti-tank weaponry is very limited. At this point, for infantry against tanks you are generally talking close assault. When you are in the game doing a close assault against a tank in the same hex, you're hitting against its flank armor with a significant positive modifier. Add in a bonus CAP or two to reflect some leadership and you have a very good chance of taking out a light or medium tank.

Infantry is not the preferred way to take out a tank in 1941, but with the proper situation and with good leadership it can do the job.

Regards,

- Erik



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 4:48:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel
That is not a true statement moet.
If you look at the screen below you will see that the Pioneer squad does indeed have an armor attack capability of 3 (blue colored attack value).

I'm playing with a press release version of the game, but of course I have little experience of play.

It's true, the pioneers have that antitank capability, but I think they are the only one among German infantry and I didn't see their equivalent among Russians. But in the scenarios, I don't think we will find as much pioneers as we would need to succeed against enemy tanks (anyway it was not their specialty during WWII...).

Lastly, the 3 attack strength (3 AS) of pioneers won't change the situation I describe above : I you try to destroy a T34 positioned in wood with a 5 AS tank like the Panzer IIIe (or with a 3 AS pioneer), you will need to go to an adjacent hex on the rear of the T34 or inside the same hex (see example below). In most situation, you won't be able to reach that rear favorable position. In front of the T34, I suppose you will need to do a group attack with the Panzer as the attack leader and at least two infantries (pioneers or not, since any of them just add 1 AS to the group), with the panzer positioned in a front hex adjacent to the T34, to get it. If you count the one, two or may be three units that will be destroyed by the T34 while you take position so close to it, that means a lot of resources to eliminate a single threat !


[image]local://upfiles/29234/1005C9EDC1BD4D85B23909C42A88E42C.jpg[/image]



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 5:05:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
The game is set in 1941, which means that squad-level infantry anti-tank weaponry is very limited. At this point, for infantry against tanks you are generally talking close assault. When you are in the game doing a close assault against a tank in the same hex, you're hitting against its flank armor with a significant positive modifier. Add in a bonus CAP or two to reflect some leadership and you have a very good chance of taking out a light or medium tank.
Infantry is not the preferred way to take out a tank in 1941, but with the proper situation and with good leadership it can do the job.


Well, if we can't ask specialized antitank infantry to help the panzers to get those T34 installed in woods (or any tanks with 18 or 19 defense value), we have a problem. In the actual game, there will be a lot too much situations where the tanks themselves will have to do close assaults to dislodge well protected armored targets in woods.



Blind Sniper -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 8:58:42 AM)

Ehm...are you saying that no AT guns are present in the game? [&:]
Or are you speaking about this scenario only?



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 11:44:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper
Ehm...are you saying that no AT guns are present in the game? [&:]
Or are you speaking about this scenario only?

There are AT guns, but there is no AT specialized infantry.

The problem is that the combat resolution system (based on 2d6) makes the well protected tanks (like T34) indestructible in woods at any distance. You have to be directly behind them to have a small chance to destroy them. This gives a weird style to the tanks confrontation. :(



undercovergeek -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 12:44:28 PM)

i think with your 'press release copy' youll know far more than anyone on here except the beta team - noone has seen this much of the game until you posted the pics, bar the AARs and screenshots



vonRocko -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 1:46:27 PM)

You say" I had a Panzer III ADJACENT to a stationary T34 having 0% hit chance against it ! ". But the picture looks like a Pz II. If that is the case, then a Pz II should have no chance at all against the front or side of a T34. Maybe that is what is going on?



raizer -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 2:10:24 PM)

A pz II luchs not gonna be able to kill a t34 from the front in the open, in woods, in a box or by a fox-its only a 20mm cannon-that is what you are referencing in the pic...not a pzIII with a 50mm i assume you think it is



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 2:50:14 PM)

Sorry about the picture (I made a lot of it). Here is a picture with a Panzer IIIe.

But the situation remains the same with all the panzers available in the two scenarios I have played ("Partisan Road" and "Assault on Peprez") : Panzer 38t, Panzer IIf, Panzer IIIe or Panzer IVd, since none of these have more than 5 attack strenght (5 AS). Note though that, in those scenarios, the Panzer 38t (5 AS) and the Panzer IIf (4 AS) have better attack strength than the Panzer IVd (2 AS).

[image]local://upfiles/29234/3101CC78BC7843958613E075B160325E.jpg[/image]



junk2drive -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 3:06:06 PM)

A short barrel IV is for throwing HE at infantry. The 20mm, 37mm, and 50mm, historically did have a problem against KVs and T34s.



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 3:22:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
A short barrel IV is for throwing HE at infantry. The 20mm, 37mm, and 50mm, historically did have a problem against KVs and T34s.

But they were able to have the better over T34s. The Panzers didn't have to kiss the T34's hindquarters to destroy them!



raizer -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 3:41:49 PM)

I have always thought that the 38t could never punch the front of a t34, along with the early pzIII's g-h; there were all unable to punch the 34. It wasn't until you get later into the war, with the arrival of the pzIII L,M was there a chance of doing it, and even then it wasn't that probable a kill. You talking long barreled 75mm here and those were a year off to make it to the front line units.

I think the game will signify this by you having to use firegroups, throw a card into it and maybe even spend some caps-it can be done but it'll be tough. The germans had no answers for the T34 during this time period and the game should reflect this-so make them rare or expensive.



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 4:06:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer
I have always thought that the 38t could never punch the front of a t34, along with the early pzIII's g-h; there were all unable to punch the 34. It wasn't until you get later into the war, with the arrival of the pzIII L,M was there a chance of doing it, and even then it wasn't that probable a kill. You talking long barreled 75mm here and those were a year off to make it to the front line units.
I think the game will signify this by you having to use firegroups, throw a card into it and maybe even spend some caps-it can be done but it'll be tough. The germans had no answers for the T34 during this time period and the game should reflect this-so make them rare or expensive.

A T34a in woods gets 19 + 2= 21 defense value. A Panzer IIIe at some distance in front of it, grouped with two other tanks, will get 5 + 1 +1 = 7 attack strength. If you add 2 CAPs, you get 9 attack strength. With the maximum you can get with 2 dices (12), you get a result of 21, which means, in almost the best conditions, 1/36 chance to hit (rounded down to 2% in the game). That's why I say that you have to get adjacent to the target (+3 attack strength) to reasonably have a chance to destroy it.

This near impossibility of hitting the front of a T34 positioned in woods is not a big problem in itself. But it becomes a real problem if the attacking panzer face the same impossibility when it attacks the rear of the T34 : even then, the panzer has to be adjacent to the T34 to destroy it!

I fear that such constraints will undermine the gameplay and encourage fanciful fights.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 7:01:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: moet
Lastly, the 3 attack strength (3 AS) of pioneers won't change the situation I describe above : I you try to destroy a T34 positioned in wood with a 5 AS tank like the Panzer IIIe (or with a 3 AS pioneer), you will need to go to an adjacent hex on the rear of the T34 or inside the same hex (see example below). In most situation, you won't be able to reach that rear favorable position. In front of the T34, I suppose you will need to do a group attack with the Panzer as the attack leader and at least two infantries (pioneers or not, since any of them just add 1 AS to the group), with the panzer positioned in a front hex adjacent to the T34, to get it. If you count the one, two or may be three units that will be destroyed by the T34 while you take position so close to it, that means a lot of resources to eliminate a single threat !


Hi Moet,

In your screenshot, that's a Panzer II with a 20mm gun. Even the Panzer IIIE with a 37mm gun had a very hard time with the T-34, except at very close range to the flank and rear. In other words, the game results you are seeing are historical given the game scale and I'm not sure why they warrant criticism.

CAPs are meant to reflect good leadership. Use those to shift the odds in a critical combat where you need to make a difference.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 7:03:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: moet
Well, if we can't ask specialized antitank infantry to help the panzers to get those T34 installed in woods (or any tanks with 18 or 19 defense value), we have a problem. In the actual game, there will be a lot too much situations where the tanks themselves will have to do close assaults to dislodge well protected armored targets in woods.


The Germans also had a problem with T-34s historically. They are a challenge, but I've had no problem winning scenarios as the Germans even when faced with them. The stats reflect the board game stats, which we feel are also historical. If you take a look at the history of the board game, where this system and these stats have won multiple awards, I think you'll find that historical tactics and matchups are reflected within the game system and the game's units.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 7:06:07 PM)

Moet,

quote:

ORIGINAL: moet
But the situation remains the same with all the panzers available in the two scenarios I have played ("Partisan Road" and "Assault on Peprez") : Panzer 38t, Panzer IIf, Panzer IIIe or Panzer IVd, since none of these have more than 5 attack strenght (5 AS). Note though that, in those scenarios, the Panzer 38t (5 AS) and the Panzer IIf (4 AS) have better attack strength than the Panzer IVd (2 AS).


I respectfully suggest that you play the game a bit more. I've taken out T-34s with the 38t and IIIe, but you need to adjust your tactics for them. You need flank and rear shots and ideally get them in the open with CAP bonuses to reflect your better leadership and training. Tactically speaking, you should be able to run circles around them and pick your opportunities with the lower AP costs and higher CAPs the Germans generally get.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 7:07:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: moet
But they were able to have the better over T34s. The Panzers didn't have to kiss the T34's hindquarters to destroy them!


For the 37mm and below, yes they pretty much did have to go for the flank and rear and at close range. The 50mm/L42 was a much better gun and that's also reflected in the game as far as it's performance vs. the T-34.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 7:09:00 PM)

Hi Raizer,

quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer
I have always thought that the 38t could never punch the front of a t34, along with the early pzIII's g-h; there were all unable to punch the 34. It wasn't until you get later into the war, with the arrival of the pzIII L,M was there a chance of doing it, and even then it wasn't that probable a kill. You talking long barreled 75mm here and those were a year off to make it to the front line units.

I think the game will signify this by you having to use firegroups, throw a card into it and maybe even spend some caps-it can be done but it'll be tough. The germans had no answers for the T34 during this time period and the game should reflect this-so make them rare or expensive.


That's exactly how it does work. You do get access to some 50mm anti-tank guns and of course the 88, but your tanks that have guns below 50mm have to work to take out a T-34. It's a tactical challenge and not something you want to fight without setting up the best possible situation first.

With the activation system and the ability to use your CAPs and cards to create good tactical situations, I feel it works out very historically.

Regards,

- Erik



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 8:06:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
You do get access to some 50mm anti-tank guns and of course the 88, but your tanks that have guns below 50mm have to work to take out a T-34. It's a tactical challenge and not something you want to fight without setting up the best possible situation first.
With the activation system and the ability to use your CAPs and cards to create good tactical situations, I feel it works out very historically.

Hi Erik.

First I apologize to have opened this thread instead of submitting my thoughts directly to the developers. As the game is not officially released, it is not yet the time to have an opened discussion based on my personal feelings without the contribution of the whole community of players. Now that the harm is done, I publish my last reaction :

I understand and accept that it won't be an easy job for the Germans to destroy a 19 defense value tank parked in woods (21 DV). The game reflects that historical challenge.

My concerns is "at what price for the gameplay?". True that the Germans will have to make a "dance" around those over protected T34, but I'm not sure that this dance will look like an historical one. I'm still not comfortable with this need, in the game, to get as close as 1 hex (50 m) to the rear of the target to get a small chance to destroy it. I can't imagine the German tanks running after their Russians opponents to get that close to their back.

But I suppose it is matter of taste and, as you say, there are probably more wise and elegant ways (that I will try to discover [:)]) to capture the prey.

Thank you all for your answers.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 8:25:32 PM)

Hi Moet,

Thanks - I think you will find that the gameplay works fine even with the high defense tanks, given the historical challenges of fighting against the Soviet heavy tanks in 1941 (when they were in repair, had ammo, gas and at least semi-competent crews). It's worth quoting from the original Conflict of Heroes board game here as well with regard to the ratings:

"Much effort went into distinguishing the units in the game by highlighting their historical strengths and weaknesses. For example, each tank defense rating takes into account relative armor thickness, armor slope deflection percentage, speed, size, targeting mechanics, and crew training. All these factors are represented in an easy to learn target number system."

Also, historically speaking the 37mm was almost completely ineffective against the T-34 from the front. It was only the flank and rear where it had any real chance to penetrate. The penetration for many of these 37mm guns was about 50-60mm at about 50-100 meters and the T-34 side armor was about equivalent to that (45mm with a slope).

Regards,

- Erik



Lebatron -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 8:53:59 PM)

Moet just wait until an experienced player takes out them invincible T34's sometime and you will realize that tactics do matter. You can't just look at stats and come to these unfounded conclusions. This games stats and gameplay have worked in the boardgame for years now. You're not pointing out any problem here. Not to those of us that have played these scenarios and discovered tactics that work.



patchogue -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 8:59:28 PM)

One of the scenarios in CM:BB had a mixed group of German tanks trying to take out a single KV1 in woods...it wasn't easy! Similarly an ASL scenario recreated an early encounter with a T-34...very hard if the tank didn't break down. And we are used to Panthers and Tigers smashing 75mm Shermans indefinitely! It sounds to me that this models a real challenge - I expect to lose for a while!



Joram -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 9:09:43 PM)

Having played these scenarios many times, I can assure you that you will learn to adapt and overcome. As Lebatron stated, there are many tactics to taking out those beasts from using CAPs to Group Fire to flanking and using special cards.



moet -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 9:21:42 PM)

I'm on the way to be convinced. I will try it by myself and see the concrete effects on the gameplay.

Indeed, I never imagined that the task was so hard for the invading Germans on the light of their enormous summer 1941 success.



Joram -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 9:43:51 PM)

You should find that some of the scenarios are quite challenging but none are impossible.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where is antitank infantry ? (4/30/2012 10:34:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: moet
Indeed, I never imagined that the task was so hard for the invading Germans on the light of their enormous summer 1941 success.


When they encountered a T-34 or KV-1 that was in good repair with enough ammo and a decent crew, if they had no 50mms or 88mms nearby they certainly had trouble. There are a few horror stories about the first encounters and some Soviet armored counterattacks before the Germans learned their weaknesses and how to destroy them (but often still at a cost). They had similar experiences with some of the French and British heavy tanks in France, but those were scarce enough and again had other weaknesses in doctrine, tactics, or what have you. The Germans had many trump cards, but the stats of their tanks (at least in the early war) was not one of them.

Fortunately for the Germans, the T-34s and KV-1s were often in poor repair and poorly led and with green crews. I believe the majority of the Soviet tank losses were non-combat losses in those early days. A few stories here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_encounter_of_Soviet_T-34_and_KV_tanks

Regards,

- Erik




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