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denisonh -> (12/27/2002 1:02:35 AM)

200,000 attrition losses does not seem unrealistic for "Napoleon's Spanish Ulcer". 7 years in Spain resulted in a large number of losses due to disease, starvation, desertion, and fighting partisans.

I have a good number of sources on the subject, but I am visiting relatives for the Holidays and am unable to access them.

If someone has a more precise number, I would be curious to see it and it's source as well.




Chiteng -> Chandler (12/27/2002 3:06:19 AM)

You dont have Chandler handy? His is the classic work. I do have it here, I will have to dig it out of its box. I didnt say 'died'
I said suffered from what the game terms 'attrition'

Surely desertion disease and generally being rendered combat
ineffective. Then again remember that the Spanish Campaign
didnt end when Le Tondu left for Wagram. He kept shovling
troops into that pest hole.




denisonh -> (12/27/2002 4:04:05 AM)

I am visiting my Mother for Christmas, and she just isn't the Napoleonic buff......:)




Le Tondu -> Did you say "died" or "dyed"? (12/27/2002 9:21:07 AM)

OK, what you meant is that they were classified as what the game calls attrition.

I believe that attrition is a very nebulous word. It can have several layers of meaning. It is an attritional loss if a soldat falls out of formation and has to bandage his feet before he re-joins his Regiment later on? The loss is temporary for certain. If he is killed by murdering peasants along the way, it is permanent. Is it an attritional loss if a trooper's horse goes lame or breaks a leg while on the march? Is the number subtracted when he rejoins his regiment with a new mount? How well were these statistics kept? Who kept them?

It was said that in France at certain times an entire army was enroute --to somewhere. They would trade their orders mid-route with someone who had orders to go in the opposite direction. Guys would be marching back and force all of the time. When they were caught, they didn't like what happened to them when they went into penal battalions. Are they attritional losses? When they rejoin their army in a penal battalion is their number subtracted?

All sides gave shaded statistics about their own armies and those of the enemy. Are these English/Spanish statistics about the French? If they are French statistics then they might be low. If they are English/ Spanish statistics, then they most certainly are over-inflated. Hmmm.

Even though the word "spin" wasn't used back then, it doesn't mean that the concept wasn't practised. Much of it was due to just plain bad bookeeping which existed in many areas too.

With all of this rule lawyering going on, I just thought that some perspective should be thrown onto the table. I'm not saying that attrition didn't exist. I'm not trying to hassel anyone about this subject. I'm just asking because I want to learn. That's all.

I'll check back for more information. Thanks guys.




denisonh -> (12/27/2002 11:27:28 PM)

Attrition should refer to losses of available strength due to reasons other than combat.

Since a majority of casualties during the Napoleonic period were due to reasons other than combat, it is a big category of losses.

Given the French army, at least early on, subject to less desertion and was adept at foraging. This resulted in the French suffering less attrition than it's opponents.

Still, they suffered from disease, the number 1 cause of casualties, like anyone else.

As for statistics and record keeping, only anal-retentive nation of shopkeepers armies kept good records as to strength and losses. It is the only army you can track strength by battalion/squadron on a regular basis to derive effects of non-combat losses.

Other armies it is detective work to find the numbers, and they will be estimates. It can be done, and some realtively accurate estimates generated. You will not get a by the man accounting for any army, but it is not a requirement when analyzing statistcis of a large organization. I would suggest far more soldiers died of disease than doing something like "trade their orders mid-route with someone". In looking at the army as a whole, I would suggest that that particular scenario if far less common and "statistically insignificant" when drawing conclusions about non-combat losses. Dysentery, frostbite, hypothermia, and desertion were probably hundreds or thousands times more common.

Suffice to say, disease being the biggest cause of casualties, not modeling it appropriately for all armies as "attrition"would be a major historical inaccuracy.




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