RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (Full Version)

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Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/18/2012 1:51:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, who has the turn?

I am still waiting for it. Obvert obviously will have to think intensivly about what to do and how to proceed. I guess he is making plans, cancelling them, making new ones... So I have to be pacient.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

I guess this will put to rest the discussion of whether it's cricket for the KB to go USCV hunting on December 8th or not.

Shouldn't it always be kosher to go after them on turn 2? I mean, the US player has had enough time to give them new orders, hasn't he? No one usually complains if the allied Player goes after the oilers, so that should be equally allowed.



quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Just read through your AAR for the first time.  Good grief!  I took screenshots of all the battles to show a friend, he's not going to believe this!  [X(]

Yes, I haven't seen this results before as well, has anyone? [:D]

But of course, if he had moved the KB somewhere else, he would've sunk the valuable modern CLs and a BB at sea and might even had Enterprise in range to strike. The result then would've been also devastating, but only for the other side.



Phanatikk -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/18/2012 2:01:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

I guess this will put to rest the discussion of whether it's cricket for the KB to go USCV hunting on December 8th or not.

Shouldn't it always be kosher to go after them on turn 2? I mean, the US player has had enough time to give them new orders, hasn't he? No one usually complains if the allied Player goes after the oilers, so that should be equally allowed.


Personally, I think all is fair in love and war after the 7th.



USSAmerica -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/18/2012 3:14:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

I guess this will put to rest the discussion of whether it's cricket for the KB to go USCV hunting on December 8th or not.


As an Allied player, I think it's absolutely cricket! 12/7, no, but from 12/8 on, I actually have a chance to move my CVTF's from their "known starting positions."



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/18/2012 4:25:22 PM)

I will go for the kill!
As the four cruisers still have some fighting power and lots of ammo left, I will continue the hunt!

I'd hate to loose this ships, but I can't give that chance away, with propably only one carrier able for flight operations!

[image]local://upfiles/25688/7E24C203F4DB47F88F80C494BA7BCE52.jpg[/image]



princep01 -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/19/2012 8:50:11 PM)

Well, Admiral Historiker, I agreed with your earlier thought pursing at this point risked turning a great victory into a smaller one. I think you are making a wasteful mistake to pursue the remaining IJN CVs and surface forces with your cruisers. The enemy is now well aware of your capabilites with the surface forces. I suspect he will be very cagey regarding his excape route. The result is that you probably have a only a small chance to even catch him again and an even smaller one of breaking thru the escort and getting to the CVs.

There is the issue of grabbing the tiger by the tail. You better not let go. He still has BCs and CAs that can bite, along with (presumably) some CV air. The result is likely going to be the end of your 4 cruisers + DDs and they likely will not even get a shot away.

Personally, I would withdraw to the safety of harbor. You know what you have done to the KB to a reasonable level and that is that you have reduced it by 1/3-1/2. That alone is a very major achievement and will certainly open to a slower IJ expansion and an earlier Allied offensive which may cascade even faster if you are able to engage the remaining KB on even terms in the firat 1/2 of 1942.

So, why risk losing these excellent ships when your chance of inflicting further damage on the KB now is small.

Let him slink away with whatever is left. Some of it may be too damaged to survive the journey home (likely anything that was seriously damaged will sink). Consolidate your CVs and repair your damaged ships. Then blow the horn and commence the hunt on your terms.

He who fights and runs away....lives to fight another day.



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/20/2012 11:12:44 PM)

quote:

He who fights and runs away....lives to fight another day.

Well, that's exactly the reason why I should go after him! [;)]

My turn is almost done, except the hunt for the KB.

I only have four CLs and one CA (lightly damaged with 19-2-7) in striking range. The DDs covering them only have a couply of torpedoes left, though the ammo of the big ships is sufficiant. The only problem is, that those guns aren't sufficiant to kill the CVs, even if they break through the cover. Thanks to their live training dodging 14in shells at night, their night experience has jumped from 35 to 60 in the last turn.
So taken they find the CVs next turn, they have a decent chance to put some shells into them.
So their mission would be to start fires that the KB's planes don't fly.

Lexington sails north between Wake and Midway to get into striking distance.
Enterprice 16-11-2-0 races to PH at full speed and hopefully doges the subs. She'll take her planes back onboard to join the hunt.
Enterprise's three CAs run north at full speed to get into an interception distance.
Saratoga is on mission speed on a course west, but she'll be too late, I'm afraid.

The KB will be out of striking distance from Oahu's airfields and I lack the heavy firepower to put decently armored ships that evade combat with heavily armoed escorts who screen them under. So That must be done by the carrier planes.

I will sleep one more night over it to think about whether I do the gamble. While its success chances are rather in the one digit percentage rate than serious, I'd propably have to go for it anyways. How often will I have enemy CVs far away from any port with fires on board?


The last days, I also took my time to think about what might be his options. This not only made me believe he'll run about 8 or 10 hex NE before heading to Northern Japan, but also what I might do wearing his shoes.
One interesting option might be, to move the KB full speed SW passing Oahu at night. This would leave it somewhere totally unexpected with a good chance to take out the Enterprise which is likely to head for PH (she does in my turn). I'm convinced that I don't really have to think about that, as he by far not as aggressive as me.
Also, while he is very likely to try to save what he can, it actually isn't that worse in the sheer numbers, disregarding the losses. He has three carriers left, and if the fires aren't getting out of hand, he might even do a gamble that they are out next turn. I did this once in a PBEM, moving a burning allied carrier in the direction of Japan while he expected it fleeing home. The fire was out the next day, and strike were flown somewhere entirely different. But again, if I'm right, he is way too defensive for such a move.

[image]local://upfiles/25688/EC653E3BC9564594BFD2790B0D3924A7.jpg[/image]



DOCUP -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/22/2012 10:42:20 PM)

Just read your AAR.  Congrats man



princep01 -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/23/2012 1:46:28 PM)

Hummmmm, not a lot of updating here. Do you know the outcome of the Great CV Chase yet? I am assuming you ignored my sage advice and committed to the chase:).

Interesting situation, for sure. Obvert is a real sport to keep his chin up and play on. I think I would have been overcome by these events and lapsed into a deep depression.



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/23/2012 2:08:01 PM)

No, I was always considering both ways, either to go or not to.
I simply didn't have the firepower left to do real damage, with a medium damaged CA and four CLs. The whole outcome of the first turn would've been different without the BB, and now this is gone.
So Big E and the cruisers returned to PH, as it would've been most likely nothing but throwing away forces I will need later.

The KB isn't gone, yet. Refueld, I may easily catch her in three or four days, as the likely retreat route is predictable. While the first day was great for my moral and made me feel undefeatable, he actually has two or three working carriers with elite crews left. So wihout enough firepower to sink them at night, the forces committed will likely get coral upgrades immeadiately after the turn.



princep01 -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/24/2012 1:07:43 AM)

Good decision, Admiral Historiker!! Medals all around on an excellent start to your campaign of "discouraging" Japanese expansionism and militarism. The President will no doubt fly out to PH to treat with you. I see an interesting and bright future ahead for you:).

I may have missed this in earlier postings, but are you going to try and build up Palembang to "fortress" level? With the demise of at least part of KB, you have a lot of options not normally available to the Allies at this stage of the game. Have you formulated a new long range plan at this point? Your recent success seems to have obviated the plans announced earlier.

Good luck. I have never seen this particular scenario unfold in an AE game. It will be a great teaching scenario for us Allied fanboys,




Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (5/24/2012 10:16:23 AM)

I thought about Palembang, but decided I consider it gamey and don't do it. The bastion there benefits from the refinery producing more supplies than even a big army can consume. But how could a refinery do that? So "Fortress Palembang" is an exploit of the game mechanics.
Thus, I don't do it!



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/1/2012 11:16:07 PM)

The turn is about to be sent back to obvert, but I'm afraid I have to change my game a bit...

The most important point is, that PJH showed up in obvert's AAR and posted at least three or four times. Maybe I'm taking myself too serious, but I bet he wouldn't mind me getting a beating because of his suggestions, the way my short game against him went. So I have to expect obvert's game to change significantly.
PJH showed in his game against Canoe, that he is willing to take serious losses just for intel. His long time opponent Nemo invaded Okinawa in his Downfall scenario - just imagine this!

So what will I have to expect:
Obvert won't change totally, that is highly unlikely. The basic doctrines that dictated his game so far can't be changed totally. He won't ignore the fact that the KB is weakend significantly. He might have thought he's beaten in first shock, but it was rather like the fabled "you must punch a shark on the nose" thing. He was punched, but he could've eaten me any time. It was just the shock that he hadn't realized it. In fact, I might have run passed Oahu and go for the most likely returning Enterprise, if I were him. Anyways, while he still is far superior, and two or three lost carriers don't change that, it is more likely to penetrate his CAP once my pilots are better trained.
But what I will face is a kind of "Nemo/PJH-Flavor". It is likely that he'll start sacrificing unimportant units. One propable choice might be a rerouting of the intact carriers of the KB towards Wake and then test the area with a couple of small xAKLs or PBs whether they are attacked. In that case, its worth spending the fuel to go for that single carrier - as it can only be one right now.

DEI:
PJH has invaded Palembang after just five days or so in the game against Canoe. While PJH might want to see me punched, he is fair and honorable. As he has posted in obvert's thread, it is even likely that he hasn't read my thread at all. In that case, he doesn#t know I consider Fortress Palembang to be gamey (at least unless the refinery is turned off). Seing the risks he was willing to take, he will likely convince obvert to attack it despite my aggressiveness, to prevent the dreaded fortress.
I plan to counter his Singkawang/Kuching opening with naval forces, if suitable. If he has taken one of the bases, he'll have aerial superiority in the area. I am right now preparing a trap around Batavia/Palembang with all my TB and am training every bomber in the area in naval attack to be able to form strike packages of up to 100 bombers (theoretically). This can only work, if his LRCAP either doesn't exist or is weak.
Two things I have to consider: As long as I haven#t committed my forces, he'll be forced to guard every invasion with heavy surface ships. To counter my cruisers and the Force Z, he'll want superiority, so at least 4 BBs. As I don't expect him intending to achieve a new record in slow advance into the SRA, he'll likely have some invasions on bases with good airfields on both sides of Borneo. Each invasion will be to be protected by 4BB+, as he doesn't intend to exchange 1 BB against 1 BB, but hopes to sink without compareable losses.
So he'll be superior, no matter what. Thanks to PJH [:@], I won't be able to get the R-classes into the game until he has land bases ready for action. Sad, but that can happen...
So once I commit my forces, it is likely they do some damage but will be destroyed. as long as I haven'c committed them, he'll be forced to be slow to protect every serious troop convoy. Once they have been sunk or at least been in action, he can disperse his forces on the other side of the Java sea. So it might actually be wise to show him with a small number of attacks that I am willing to commit my forces while not actually committing them. To achieve that, the three D-Class CLs are at Miri now and preparing for intercepts of Japanese shipping in the South China Sea.

Burma:
While he defenitly can create naval supremacy with the rest of the KB and the MKB, I don't actually think it is likely. So I am thinking about reinforcing Burma seriously, to propably even get the chance to hold it.

Austraila:
Darwin will be reinforced heavily - but only with units that are withdrawing within 500 to 600 days. This way, he may even be fended off, while a Japanese victory only destroys units that are gone anyway.

Pacific:
I am planning not to commit any serious forces for island defense, so far. With the amphib bonus, it is quite difficult to protect any base unitl the bonus has run out. But I'll decide after I've seen his game.

China:
All out attack!
In CHS, it has been a classic starting move to attack Nanchang as Chinese. I wonder why it seems that nobdoy is doing this any more. In fact, except Ichang, there doesn#t seem to be any serious offensive at all by almost every player. I am propably going to find out soon, why that is so [;)]
Right now, I have huge number of troops heading for Nanchang and in the hexes around it to block it from supplies. #
Ichang is already entered and will be attacked next turn. The units will then wait until the attack on Nanchang is fully unfolding. This might cause him to shift reserves and open new opportunies for the several k AV in Ichang. They will consequently march for Hankow.
Other forces are en route to block the supply routes for Sinyang which will be attacked as well.
One unit at Kweiteh is moving into the open field. It will divide there and the fragments will spread in the Japanese Hinterland to block the railroads until destroyed.
Tsiatso and the hex between it an Kaifeng are reinforced, as they are better suited for defense.
The troops in the Nanyang area march for Sinyang.

The basic ideas for that:
China has many, many forces. It usually only uses them in defense (for good reasons). This way, I intend to disperse every offensive ambitions by him through threatening his bases on various fronts from the beginning, when he has divisions guarding tiny bases due to the not yet shifted garrisons. The units destroyed will no longer need supplies what leaves more for the other units. Chinese units surviving will have gained experience.
Every engineer unit is moved into the backyards to build strongholds, enough reserves to hold them even if the offensives fail should be in place. If that is combined with a defended Burma, it might turn out interestingly. If it doesn't work, so what?



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/2/2012 8:27:55 PM)

12/11/42

Shokaku is reported sunk and the losses on ground indicate that indeed a big carrier went down. Yippey, that means 3 Japanese CVs sunk for 1 BB, 1 CA and 1 CL. What an amazing result [sm=happy0065.gif]

PI:
I sweeped Vigan and the PI-bombers should trash the place. The sweeps went fine for what was possible. 18 Zeros destroyed A2A for 13 P-40E, 4 P-40B, 5 P-35 and 5 P-26. So my bad pilots took down 18 Zeros for 17 modern fighters. Nice and again taking the initiative.
A few minor units have their HQ changed to transfer fragments to Kwangchowan in China. Of course, you can rebuy them, but I have them right where they are needed.
After that, the scattered units off Luzon will be flown to Clark Field.
A Japanese Cruiser Forces hunted my shipping south of Puerta Princesa. I send 4 cruisers and 4 DDs to intercept.

Malaya:
Nothing special. Retreating south while some units are left behind to slow him down a little.

Pacific:
Reinforcements for Wake are under way, while there are already PBs and DBs in place.

[image]local://upfiles/25688/3805440207CB404DB9285C21ECB5448D.jpg[/image]



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/3/2012 12:42:46 PM)

12/12/41

Subs:
KXI puts two fish into xAK Chihaya Maru at Patarri, damaging it heavily. The ship is reported sunk.
I-165 is reported sunk after one of my two ASW groups catch it east of Billiton.

Carriers:
KB is out of sight, now. I have Catalinas on Wake and Midawy to find it, should he decide to go for my likely reinforcement of Wake. I would try to catch the CV that is likely close to wake. Sinking one CV in return would lessen the allied victory and to try it seems rather save.
Lexington stays east of Wake and has detached CA Astoria to move to the island. Wake will also be mined by two DMs in two turns, the first parts of the 3rd Marine Defense Batallion is just 5 days away.

DEI:
Two Japanese CAs wreak havoc in the Celebes Sea. Really bad, as my cruiser force has just left the area and would've been stronger than his forces! Both the cruisers and Force Z move into the Celebes sea to intercept.

PI:
He invades Laoag with Paras and performs an amphib invasion in the base as well.
Several fast xAKs are en route from the DEI to Bataan with supplies. These single ship TFs aren't likely to break through, but if they do, their supplies will help the defense.



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/3/2012 8:40:46 PM)

12/13/41

Subs;
He sinks two xAK/xAP with various subs, while the PoW is missed [:D]

Wake:
The Vindicators on Wake attack various TFs near the atoll and sink three xAKL. Interesting note: No troops were on board. Obvert confirmed to me, that he sent this ships to find out about the opposition. So PJH already has some effect on obvert's game.
The DMs mine the atoll, anda re turned into a SCTF with reaction 6 on their way home. CA Portland is in position to defend the base. 4 days left until the first parts of the 3rd Marine Defense Btl. arrives.

DEI:
While I consider Fortress Palembang to be gamey thanks to it exploiting the supply production by the refinery, there is nothing preventing me from using it as an airbase. The xAP Dominion Moncarhc moved 224 Group RAF from Singapore to allow my bombers fly with torpedoes there. Unfortunaltey, Dominion Monarch was too big for the river up to Palembang, so I had to divert it to Oosthaven. It proved right to mostly use "amphib" for transport missions, as I was able to unload the Air HQ there despite the tiny port. This HQ will allow flight operations with torpedoes from Palembang and Prabomehboelih. I hope to be able to perform a nice ambush there with all those planes that are in training there at the moment.
Force Z returns to Soerabaja, as it has been spotted. It will probably move to Batavia after that to be on the side of Borneo it isn't expected.

PI:
Naval battles in the Sulu Sea. The Cruiserforce that was ordered back to the Celebes Sea reacts to attack TB Kasagi and follows it four times into the South China Sea. This tiny TB dodges so many bullets that despite it was finally put into heavy damage after the third time, CH Houston is low on ammo. At day, several more battles follow. A Jap Fast Transport TF is attacked, but the small TBs and DDs dodge most bullets once more [:@].
After that, they meet a Jap Cruiser force and the battle ends once more without descision. My cruisers really performed poor, today...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Balabac at 69,81, Range 22,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Tsuta
DD Yomogi, Shell hits 1, on fire
TB Otori
TB Hiyodori, Shell hits 2
TB Hayabusa

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 3
CL Java
CL De Ruyter
CL Tromp
DD Alden
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Edsall

Japanese ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Balabac at 69,81, Range 19,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Haguro
CA Nachi, Shell hits 2
DD Kuroshio
DD Oyashio
DD Hatsukaze, Shell hits 1
DD Natsushio

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 1
CL Java
CL De Ruyter
CL Tromp
DD Alden, Shell hits 2
DD Barker, Shell hits 1
DD Bulmer, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Edsall

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


DA Houston is totally out of ammo and ordered back to Soerabaja with the three damaged DDs. The three Dutch CLs will meet with the three british D-Class CLs at Brunei and hopefully be powerfull enough to fend off any enemy invasion in that area. Hopefully, the TF won't be big enough for Jap Netties to strike [:-]

China.
The roadblock between Wuchang and Kiukiang is in place and will be reinforced soon, as Japanese units are en route from Wuchang. Nine Chinese Crops are ready to attack Nanchang, soon! Nanchang and Kiukiang will be isolated from land support and supplies, so I hope my forces will be enough to take it out.
As soon as he sends reinforcements, other spearheads will march on Hankow and Sinyang.

Let's see how my Chinese offensive will turn out [;)]

[image]local://upfiles/25688/B58C684C06C7421B86F687AB152D11B7.jpg[/image]



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/4/2012 12:29:14 AM)

12/14/41

Bataan Supply runs:
Two xAK filled with supplies are sunk on the route. I'm afraid I might not get some through, but I'll try...

Borneo:
The rest of my cruisers meet the Japanese CAs again. Both sides exchange shells, but almost without effect. Really strange how indescisive our encounters here are...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Balabac at 69,84, Range 9,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Maya
CA Ashigara
CL Kuma, Shell hits 1
DD Asakaze
DD Matsukaze

Allied Ships
CL Java, Shell hits 1
CL De Ruyter
CL Tromp
DD Edsall



Reduced sighting due to 28% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 28% moonlight: 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 9,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
de Meester, J.B. crosses the 'T'
CL Tromp engages CL Kuma at 9,000 yards
CA Maya engages CL Tromp at 9,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CL Java at 9,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Matsukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Edsall at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
CA Maya engages CL Tromp at 10,000 yards
CL De Ruyter engages CL Kuma at 10,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CL Java at 10,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Matsukaze at 10,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Asakaze at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CL Tromp at 9,000 yards
CA Maya engages CL De Ruyter at 9,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CL Tromp at 9,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Matsukaze at 9,000 yards
CL Tromp engages CA Ashigara at 9,000 yards
CL Kuma engages CL De Ruyter at 9,000 yards
CL Java engages CA Maya at 9,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages DD Edsall at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CL Tromp at 11,000 yards
CA Maya engages CL De Ruyter at 11,000 yards
CL Java engages CL Kuma at 11,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Matsukaze at 11,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages DD Edsall at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DEI:
Surprise! His BBs are already here. One of my xAKL meets three Japanese BBs off Donggala. Force Z is just out of that area. I expected his BBs, bot not three of them. I was rather expecting four, with four on the Malayan side of Borneo and two with the KB, four on the southern side of Borneo were likely. But maybe he sent one of them to the Bismack sea, where the ANZAC cruisers usually are?
Anyways, I am thinking about what to do. When I hit them, I can have a lucky roll, especially at day with the reinforced Force Z. On the other hand, I might want to wait for the R-class BBs to come, or for my trap at Palembang to hit...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Donggala at 69,96, Range 25,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Fuso
BB Ise
BB Hyuga
CL Yura
DD Mikazuki
DD Yakaze
DD Wakatake
DD Kuretake
DD Sanae

Allied Ships
xAK Munlock, Shell hits 7, and is sunk



Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 25,000 yards
Japanese open fire on surprised Allied ships at 25,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages xAK Munlock at 25,000 yards
Range closes to 22,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages xAK Munlock at 22,000 yards
BB Ise engages xAK Munlock at 22,000 yards
BB Fuso engages xAK Munlock at 22,000 yards
Range closes to 20,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages xAK Munlock at 20,000 yards
xAK Munlock sunk by BB Fuso at 20,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

China:
Invasion at Wenchow. He lands the 33rd Division. As my forces are of almost equal strength in a wooden hex, I am quite confident to be able to hold for some time. But I don't really care. That base is doomed anyways, and every unit he uses here can't be used anywhere else. That's fine with me. [:)]




princep01 -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/4/2012 2:14:25 AM)

About China. Admiral, while the Chinese are capable of some mischief at this early stage (Ichange, Nanchang), it is a nation of severely limited supply resources. You can help this situation by keeping the Burma Trail open as long as possible and pumping supply delivered to Rangoon by base pull. It takes a while for the base pull method to really make a mark, but once the flow is established, China's chronic supply ills can be remedied to a degree. Of course, you can supplement the flow by air transport too, but supply is the real issue in China. Be very judicious in construction activity and issuing replacements. Anything that burns supply is a negative very erly on and doesn't get much better unless you keep the base pumping going and the Trail open.

Early on, the Chinese units, while numerous, have little experience, low morale, few base forces and very little helpful air support. They are qualitatively quite inferior to the Japanses LCUs. Other than that, you still can increase their experience by picking your fights and winning some battles.

One thing that comes in very handy if it appears the Japs are going to make a big push in China is to move a couple of B-17 Groups (wings) into Chungking or some other relatively well stocked base and beat the daylights out of the Japanese with them. I have had very good success doing this in some games...to the point that the Jap player sometimes squeal a bit about it being "gamey". Nay, Nay sire...it is not. Once they have out-stayed their welcome in China, I shift them to some place in Burma or Indian (under 10th AF HQ control) where they can be put to tactical use until it is time to mass them and use them strategically.

While I have never used the Palembang fortress gambit, I do like to fly troops into the place and use it as a road block/speed bump center of defense. I want to make the Japanese fight for it to the point that they rubble it a bit...then they can have it and rebuild it. As to it being gamey...if the British and Americans had not bought into the racially motivated and incorrect theme that the Japanese were quite ill equipped and inferior soldiers as compared to western troops, the ADBA forces might well have occupied Palembang in force by flying and shipping in troops to make the Japanese fight for it or to destroy the refineries and oil production facilities most throughly. You are correct that the game does an unrealistic job of creating an over abundance of supply in the hex even when it is under seige, but making a speed bump defense there does not seem gamey at all. Under leadership not emdued with racial fantasies, I sure can see the wisdom of fighting for it (great terrain, limited access by sea, within aerial support from Singers and an important strategic objective/resouce badly needed by the Japanese.




Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/4/2012 10:20:13 AM)

Strategic bombing in China isn't allowed, but I can always use bombers in A2G missions.

I know about the supplies situation in China. I still decided to go for several offensives for this reasons:
- I dictate the game, he has to follow my lead. He can't prepare own offensives, he is permanently kept busy.
- I may be able to force some units into retreat what takes them out for months
- I can get better defensible positions
- I can destroy industry and ressources, which isn't allowed in China and will weaken his position even if he takes the base back
- I push him away from my defensive lines. Even if he succeeds to push me back, he has a longer advance than initially while my engineers had more time to fortify my positions.
- the more I push, the more likely is that he committs extra unrestricted units. They can't help him in Burma or Australia...

Also: Every destroyed Chinese unit doesn't need any supplies and thus makes the rest stronger. [:)]



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/4/2012 5:34:54 PM)

12/15/41

Subs:
First kill by a US sub, two more blockade runners sunk. So far, only one xAKL is likely to break through! [:@]

DEI:
Singkawang and Kuching are invaded by fast transport TFs with CAs and heavy cover. The cover consists of at least three BBs - but in different TFs with two BBs as a maximum. Having seen the warships steaming west, I sent Force Z to Singkawang at mission speed, but with 6hex reaction. Well, the force with likely superior strength reacted... and fled the field! [X(]


Wake:
CA Portland had her airgroup set to night naval recon which proved to be a good descision. She takes out an enemy PB. A little surprise happens about 10 hex east of Wake, when Lexington launches a strike at the two big japanese AMC that start in the Pacific. I was expecting him to find out whether there's still a carrier, but this way? Strange... Well, that solves the question what to do about those two. They won't attack any troop convoy deep in the pacific. Fine! [:)]

China:
He is serious about Wenchow! This units are now identified:
113th Infantry Regiment
56th Engineer Regiment
148th Infantry Regiment
56th Recon Regiment
33rd Division
56th Field Artillery Regiment

My own offensives are under way and will commence, soon. It is amazing how many units I am able to force him shifting around by simply moving my own. See the screenshot:


[image]local://upfiles/25688/02BCBC6ED2D248F0B56CE10B546E3D72.jpg[/image]



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/4/2012 10:08:56 PM)

12/16/42

DEI:
Force Z finally strikes, but one day too late. She can't prevent the landing at Singkawang and losses the naval battle. PoW goes down after being hit by multiple 36cm shells and a torpedo. With her goes down the old CL Marblehead and two destroyers.
The British CLs meet a Jap cruiser force at night and the battle ends undescisive. When the sun rises, they meet a transport fleet and sink it to the last ship. Unfortunaltey, it turns out to be empty [:@].
A heavy british cruiser force just arrives from India to join the party, but unfortunately finds the Singkawang hex almost empty. Just two destroyers are there and swiftly sent to the bottom. CA Exceter recieves 3 12,7cm hits and ends with 64 sys damage, but no floatation, fire or engine damage. Strange!
The remaining forces will hit Singkawang in a bombardement at night and return to Singapore.

Palembang:
I don't intend "Fortress Palembang", but that doesn't mean I give it away. 100 AV are in position, as well as 47 TB, with 18 more on the british CVL in transfer range. Another 100 bombers or so are in range and training naval bombardement. I should also have about 100 fighters for escort, so I hope he comes without SERIOUS LR-Cap. [8D]

China:
Several offensives are rolling. Depending how fast I am, I might take quite a few valuable bases! if not, I hope to be strong enough to hold the inner line until the weakened forces regained strength, especially if I leave some behind in the woods to cut is LOC.

Wake
The first additional forces will land tomorrow. From now on, it'll cost him more than planned [:)]

PI:
The first blockade runners made it through [:)]. Two xAKL deliver 2750 supplies to the defenders of Luzon. Huzzah!

Overall:
While the loss of the PoW is sad, she did go down with blazing guns against some other big guns. That's what she was built for, the universe stays in order. I rather loose her in a fair fight against other BBs than against some air torpedoes. She had a really good chance, but fate wasn#t on our side...

[image]local://upfiles/25688/84BA0EB5C2854A97944C29CC2E5B9F7B.jpg[/image]



princep01 -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 4:14:31 AM)

Admiral, I have mentioned this before and it comes from the highest of sources. You hurt yourself with your TF composition in the fight with Haruna and Kongo. By putting Adelaide in the force, you really slowed the whole. That is a very bad thing to do. In addition, while less harmful, even putting CLs in a BB TF is not a good idea. I am not a programmer and do not know all the nuiances of this program, but again, no less an authority than Nemo has said that putting ships with guns having much less range than the main guns of you BBs is not good for your TF. The Japanese 8" cruisers fire at a range almost equal to their 14" guns on the BCs, so they can get away with CAs mixed in the group, but you cannot with CLs.

I believe that the ideal formation for BB/BC TFs is 8 ships; 2-4 BB/BC with 4-6 DDs. Whatever you do, do not add slow cruisers to a fast BB TF like you had with Force Z.



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 8:29:54 AM)

Yes, I remember Nemo's explanations and usually follow them, despite the fact that they are from witp times.

The reason here was, that I needed as much firepower as possible. Should I go in week when I can add a few thousand gun value extra? If the lower range of the CLs' guns would weaken the whole TF, shouldn't the presence of DDs weaken it as well in terms of game mechanics? And btw: this was a night battle with ranges below 12k, IIRC, so gun range should've been no problem.

Adeleide has the same cruise speed, so if I didn't plan to go full speed, I've seen no problem. In the case I felt the need of higher speed, I would've left her behind.



koniu -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 8:54:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Adeleide has the same cruise speed, so if I didn't plan to go full speed, I've seen no problem. In the case I felt the need of higher speed, I would've left her behind.


Cruise speed is the same but in combat full speed is used and TF is as fast as slowest ships so he slow down rest of ships



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 9:07:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Adeleide has the same cruise speed, so if I didn't plan to go full speed, I've seen no problem. In the case I felt the need of higher speed, I would've left her behind.


Cruise speed is the same but in combat full speed is used and TF is as fast as slowest ships so he slow down rest of ships


really? Makes sense... So all ships have a lower chance to avoid torpedoes. Not good...



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 12:07:46 PM)

12/17/41

DEI:
Singkawang got bombarded by three different TFs, but the damage is rather light. I guess Palembang is soon cut off. The TFs retreating to Singapore will hit Singkawang one more time before retreating to Java. Only the three british D-Class CLs will pass the northern coast of Borneo and break through to Manila. There should be some targets in this area and they are perfectly suited for that task:
- with only 29kn as top speed, there are better CLs
- they have torpedoes
- they are all to be withdrawn without coming back, so they are gone anyways.
- they have good experience ratings, even at night.

China:
His airstrikes REALLY hut. But the AVG strikes the first time and takes down 9 bombers with two own planes lost to ops. That should make him more caucious!

Wake:
A sub hits the transport TF two hex off Wake. Luckily it puts a fish into one of the PGs escorting. So while this ship is down, it is no problem.

Burma:
Burma is getting reinforced massively. The 17th Indian division is almost completely in place. day per day ships bring supplies. Let's see what we can do here! Without the full KB, he will have to be carefull. He might have naval supremacy, but thanks to his overall weaker forces, my LBA is much more likely to break through his CAP. This makes Invasions in India VERY difficult and is thus inviting me to try making a stand in Burma.



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 5:21:58 PM)

12/17/41

PI:
My PT boats take until daylight for just three hex. They are consequently handed roughly by Japanese DDs and a CL. Not many left...
He finally flies some sweeps. Manila is swept with 17-6 lost in his favor. I have the CAP because Manila's repair shipyard still holds a couple of damaged subs I don't want to risk sending to Soerabaja, yet.
MKB spottet at Surigao.

DEI:
Singkawang is bombarded several times, again. With him having two airfields, I still have to retreat as he'll have an air HQ there, soon.

Wake:
The next convoy is attacked by the sub and looses an AM. That's ok, the transports are important!

China:
The Chinese Army attacks Sinyang with results in my favor. The City is seriously in danger but will propably recieve reinforcements by another Division tomorrow. We'll see.
But with him sending his forces to several sides, Wuchang is exposed with just one division in it. Several Chinese Corps rush to attack the city.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Sinyang (86,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 52079 troops, 276 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1839

Defending force 8054 troops, 74 guns, 13 vehicles, Assault Value = 279

Allied adjusted assault: 630

Japanese adjusted defense: 271

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
570 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 24 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled


Allied ground losses:
2462 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 303 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Guns lost 18 (1 destroyed, 17 disabled)


Assaulting units:
85th Chinese Corps
48th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
90th Chinese Corps
7th New Chinese Corps
2nd Group Army
3rd Group Army
31st Group Army

Defending units:
12th RGC Temp. Division
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
18th RGC Temp. Division
52nd Road Const Co
67th JAAF AF Coy



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 8:39:26 PM)

12/19/41

China:
My roadblock between Hankow and Nanchang is pushed out of the way. One of the units is pretty much destroyed and will retreat to Changsha to rebuild. The other one stays in place and will either retreat to Changsha is necessary, or march again on the road to block it.
The second attack on Sinyang went fine. He suffers about the same amount of casualties and the forts are reduced to two:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Sinyang (86,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 50167 troops, 275 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1600

Defending force 7707 troops, 74 guns, 13 vehicles, Assault Value = 236

Allied adjusted assault: 702

Japanese adjusted defense: 429

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
682 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled


Allied ground losses:
666 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 48 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled


Assaulting units:
90th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
85th Chinese Corps
48th Chinese Corps
7th New Chinese Corps
3rd Group Army
2nd Group Army
31st Group Army

Defending units:
12th RGC Temp. Division
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
18th RGC Temp. Division
52nd Road Const Co
67th JAAF AF Coy

The first two Corps are flown out to India and will train and grow to their maximum size of 243 squads in Calcutta.

Burma:
Burma will be defended by this units + some of those tiny initial Burmese units with 15 to 30 AV:
- 36th Chinese Division
- 88th Chinese Division
- 6th Burmese Division
- 17th Indian Division
The Chinese Corps currently flown out to Ledo will soon be used in Burma as well.
I will also send two more Indian Brigades. Depending on the situation, further reinforcements will also arrive or secure the Indian coast against a possible try to cut off Burma.

Wake:
A Jap subs duds my CA at the Atoll. As it has no escort, I immediately order it back to Pearl Harbor.
His Netties fly a strike against the shipping and drop bombs. Has he forgotten to load his Air HQ with torpedoes? Luckily they miss and the unloading continues. The 3rd Marine Defense Btln is almost completly ashore, about 10k supplies are still on the ships though.
I will order Lexington with a few fighters to the base to send back the planes that were originally on the atoll. This should be sufficiant defense against further attacks once they are there.

DEI:
Damn, my bombardements against Singkawang are effective. The destroy increasing numbers of squads and cause heacy damage in the base. Too bad I'll have to retire as the ships will be in danger of getting Nettie visits, soon. Also, his big guns should be back in place pretty soon. I don't want to have one of my cruiser forces on a bombardement mission meet four of his BBs...
Soerabaja, underway with two AMs, meets a Japanese SCTF with two CAs at night and is surprised. The ships go down without even returning the fire. I still have to see Soerabaja's mighty guns do damage in one of my games. She usually goes down like this or in an air attack [:(]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 9:40:42 PM)

As Soerabaja is a PG it starts with dismal experience. I wouldn't try to use it until it has trained up to 45/45 by just sitting somewhere not disbanded for a while.



Historiker -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 9:48:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

As Soerabaja is a PG it starts with dismal experience. I wouldn't try to use it until it has trained up to 45/45 by just sitting somewhere not disbanded for a while.

I know. But I always use what I have at hand. Defending the DEI, I hardly have the time to let my assets sit around for a year or so. Have you ever achieved something with her?



Captain Cruft -> RE: Ivory Hunt: obvert(J) vs. Historiker(A) closed AAR (6/5/2012 10:49:10 PM)

I usually play Japan :-)

A quick fix in the editor for the next game methinks ...



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