Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J) (Full Version)

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JocMeister -> Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J) (6/9/2012 7:03:58 PM)
I´ve changed the title of the AAR in order to reflect that this AAR get updated quite frequently. We are now in January 45 So, my estemeed opponent obvert and I just had a major carrier clash outside Suva. This is just a short summery from the allied perspective. The reason for doing this mini AAR is twofold. First I need help assesing the battle, and foremost the damage inflicted. I also want to put it down in writing so obvert and I can compare notes in the future [:)] His AAR is titled Wild Sheeps chase and can be found in this forum if anyone wants to check both sides! http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3121186 Background: About 2 months ago I tried to sneak in a small Seebee unit guarded by a defense battalion on a small dot island called Anatom outside Nomuea. This was unfortunanly quickly picked up by recon. The Plan: Up till now obvert had been very agressive with KB. Raiding eastern OZ with the KB and western OZ with MKB. I tried to connect with parts of the KB earlier when it was travelling deep in the SoPac and failed for unknow reasons. I knew he was going to try and take Anatom back. My main goal was simply to try and force a carrier battle on my own terms within LBA range. He didn´t counter land immediately and I soon got intel he was preping atleast a 3rd of a division for the task. I know many people like to hunker down with their CVs and "save them" until complete carrier supremacy can be achieved. We all know that this far from what the USN did. Obverts agressive use of the KB was making it extremly hard for me to do anything in the SoPac area. I really felt that given the right circumstances I could do alot of damage to the KB and thus making it harder for him to dominate the SoPac area. Anatom gave me a good chance to do just that. The buildup Obviously I need my CVs for any kind of intervention so about 50 days ago I sent them home to the WC to upgrade and train the airgroups. I already had a good amount of army fighters at Suva. They are flying the P39 but have done very well against earlier attempts to Sweep Suva by the KB. All pilots are above 70 in EXP. A formidable force to be used in a LRCAP role over the CVs. Theese were reinforced with about 100 USMC fighters and almost 100 DBs. I also started gathering all the 2Es I could find and stared training them in naval bombing. I managed to amass about 80 of them. I needed them for the range. Anything to tip the balance in my favour. The 4Es. As these are useless against the KB the best I could hope for was to delay the fight on Anatom. With luck I could force him to use parts of the KB to LRCAP Anatom. Situation map the day before the battle below. [image]local://upfiles/32406/5C53861BFB5D49FCB8AADFEB3C968FCB.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 7:40:41 PM)
The Battle Even the best of plans fall apart as soon as battle is joined. There were nothing organized or military about the battle. It was mayhem and it was ruled by the weather. I don´t know if the weather was a blessing or a curse. I had thunderstorms over my CV TFs which was a blessing. On the other hand Suva also did. Suva was the major focus of my plan. It was supposed to be the unsinkable carrier stacked with 2E supporting the strike aswell as providing a LRCAP of almost 300 fighters over my TFs. That didn´t work... As it turns out only a few P39s (4 out out of 200) show up over my CVs and makes little difference in the outcome. This is the major strike by the KB. BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 1 CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage CA Quincy, Torpedo hits 1 CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1 CLAA Atlanta DD Mugford CA Vincennes DD Henley BB Washington Just before the strike I got several message about my B25 not being able to "link up" or some sort. As can be seen in the picture below the Hornet TF for some reason didn´t manage to keep up with the rest of the TFs. Again, blessing or a curse? My first strike go in and hit the MKB lingering just south of the KB. Not happy about that obviously. Japanese Ships CV Junyo, Bomb hits 1, on fire CVL Zuiho CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 1, on fire CV Kaga CVE Hosho, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires CV Akagi CV Hiyo At this time I feel like an idiot that just gambled away everything on a silly plan. Luckely there was one more strike left. This is the one I´m not sure about. Either it saved the day or made the fiasco complete... Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Efate at 124,154 Weather in hex: Light rain Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 31 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 31 Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 53 SBD-3 Dauntless x 102 TBF-1 Avenger x 12 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses F4F-4 Wildcat: 5 destroyed F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed by flak SBD-3 Dauntless: 13 damaged SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak TBF-1 Avenger: 3 damaged Japanese Ships CV Soryu, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage CA Tone, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires DD Kawakaze DD Makigumo BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 1 DD Shigure CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Sagiri DD Yugumo Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Soryu Fuel storage explosion on CV Soryu Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Tone The idea to complement the strikes with 2Es proved almost a complete fiasco since only about 15 planes of the 80 actually flew. But atleast a happy ending to that... Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 20 Allied aircraft B-25C Mitchell x 9 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses B-25C Mitchell: 3 damaged Japanese Ships BB Kirishima CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage After that my avengers decided it was time to fly in broken up packages without any kind of escort. I get two hits, both duds and a lot of dead Avengers. They were almost completly wiped out. Now the lovely game engine decides to give me a nice kick in the scrotum and diverts most of the surviving DBs to Anatom instead of Nadi. Nadi was closer and had clear weather. 90 planes and pilots are lost in the following attack on Anatom when obvert captures the base the same turn. [:(] The engine will come back and haunt me the next day costing me a carrier. [image]local://upfiles/32406/64630A29F77B48F3ACC960B8CC6E320A.jpg[/image]

Dan Nichols -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 7:47:03 PM)
Well, if you were able to trade about even in CVs, you have won. The problem with the diverted aircraft is that they went to the closes airfield from the battle, not your CVs. It will be interesting to see what the final outcome will be.

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 8:01:42 PM)
Aftermath and the reason for this mini AAR! Did I just make a fool out of myself? My initial reaction was that I suffered a major defeat. I lost the Wasp outright and Enterprise go down the following day when my CAP again fails to fly. This time in clear weather. Good moral, low fatigue and the best leaders there is. Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 37 B5N2 Kate x 50 Japanese aircraft losses B5N2 Kate: 4 damaged B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed by flak Allied Ships CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 1 CA Quincy, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage CLAA Atlanta, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD McCalla DD Patterson, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires DD Craven, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires DD Cushing, Bomb hits 1, on fire Ent goes down like a rock while more then 200 fighters decide they have better things to do then protect a badly damaged CV... Atleast I get a little bit revenge Submarine attack near Efate at 124,154 Japanese Ships CV Shokaku, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage Allied Ships SS Gato My inital thoughts beyond that was that he managed to save all his carriers. Yes they were on fire and listed as heavy damage. This is my first PBEM and I have zero experience with these things. But looking again at the combat report and the replay I´m not so sure anymore: CV Soryu, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage CA Tone, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires DD Kawakaze DD Makigumo BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 1 DD Shigure CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Sagiri DD Yugumo Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Soryu Fuel storage explosion on CV Soryu Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Tone To you more experienced player out there I have a simple question: How badly damaged are his carriers? Worst case scenario is that all of them managed to get home safely. In that case what kind of yard time are we looking at? Two months? A year? Shokaku is probably in a world of hurt if manages to get to safty. There are some things that have started to make me wonder if he either suffered very badly or got away relativly free. I have about 10 subs hunting around the waters but non have connected to anything besides Shokaku in the last two turns. The game have now progressed 2 more turns. He has retired faster then what my subs can keep up with. I don´t think he would leave his cripples behind. So what is it? Did he get away in relativly good shape or is there a chance his CVs actually sank? This is the million dollar question for me right now. Because if the sank or will be gone for a long time in the yard I actually have carrier supremacy right now. In late 42! [X(]

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 8:13:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols Well, if you were able to trade about even in CVs, you have won. The problem with the diverted aircraft is that they went to the closes airfield from the battle, not your CVs. It will be interesting to see what the final outcome will be. Ah, that explains it! [:(]

ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 8:26:17 PM)
CVs Hiryu, Soryu, and Wasp are considered heavy CVs, but are a lot more fragile when they get hit than say Akagi or Lexington which were built as Battle Cruisers. I count an Ammo or Fuel Explosion as two torpedo hits. Any Japanese ship with "heavy damage" is at risk of sinking do to poor damage control. They are far enough away from a port not to make it if they are in such bad shape. Vector subs to Luganville and/or Noumea to see if they can get luck and finish off any cripples.

Uncivil Engineer -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 9:10:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister So what is it? Did he get away in relativly good shape or is there a chance his CVs actually sank? This is the million dollar question for me right now. Because if the sank or will be gone for a long time in the yard I actually have carrier supremacy right now. In late 42! [X(] From my limited experience, any carrier on fire with heavy damage is done. If they are still floating how would those TF's be able to out run your subs? If they sank then the remaining TF escorts would likely be able to do that. I haven't looked at obvert's AAR on this game, so I'm only expressing my educated guess. But then, what do Army guys know about carrier warfare!?

Dan Nichols -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 9:24:03 PM)
For an answer Jocke, I believe that Soryu is down( Fuel storage explosion ). Shokaku is down( 6 bombs, heavy damage, then a torpedo). Zuikaku is probably either down or soon will( heavy fires can easily escalate on an IJN ship ).

Miller -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 10:50:52 PM)
Heavy fires = death to any Jap ship, even if it is only a few hexes from port.

PaxMondo -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/9/2012 11:17:04 PM)
Yeah, a lot of dead IJN CV's here. They can only take 2 - 3 1000lb bombs, and then they become fish hotels pretty fast. IJN damage control is attrocious. Fires kill them faster than torps do.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/10/2012 1:33:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo Yeah, a lot of dead IJN CV's here. They can only take 2 - 3 1000lb bombs, and then they become fish hotels pretty fast. IJN damage control is attrocious. Fires kill them faster than torps do. My rule of thumb (I've got big thumbs) is: "Heavy fires, heavy damage"= toast "Fires, heavy damage"= small chance Reading these results I'm left wondering if this carnage was worth it for any possible strategic advanatge, for either of you? What an odd place to fight Midway.

PaxMondo -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/10/2012 4:46:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo Yeah, a lot of dead IJN CV's here. They can only take 2 - 3 1000lb bombs, and then they become fish hotels pretty fast. IJN damage control is attrocious. Fires kill them faster than torps do. My rule of thumb (I've got big thumbs) is: "Heavy fires, heavy damage"= toast "Fires, heavy damage"= small chance Reading these results I'm left wondering if this carnage was worth it for any possible strategic advanatge, for either of you? What an odd place to fight Midway. You are far more eloquent than I. [&o][&o][&o] big thumbs rule!! [;)]

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/10/2012 6:55:20 AM)
Thank you everyone for the help! [:)] That is good news indeed. As I know nothing of theese things I feared he might get away in relativly good shape. If I took out Soryu, Shokaku and Zuikaku that is good news indeed! [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 Reading these results I'm left wondering if this carnage was worth it for any possible strategic advanatge, for either of you? What an odd place to fight Midway. Well, for me its absolutly worth it. My main goal was to damage to KB to the extent that he couldn´t dominate me in the SoPac. Something he had done since early 42. Basing the KB in Tulagi made life very hard for me. That threat is now partially removed. If he want to intervene he will have to do it on about even terms from now on. Something I don´t think he will chance this far into the SoPac again. I have everything prepped and ready to go and invasions will start shortly. The remaining CVs he has will probably be very precious and I think he will be very carefull of them. Another exchange like this he will have massive problems in the coming years. I on the other hand get a steady reinforcement of CVs! [:)] I´m pretty sure Erik is kicking himself a little though. Had it been Tulagi he might have felt it was a neccecary risk. Anatom probably not so! Loosing the 70 DBs on Anatom sucks though. I´ve had to downgrade alot landbased groups to SBD-2 and 1s. I will have 3 carriers operational with full airgroups in about a week. All the remaining veterans I have left. This will be augmented with the 4 CVEs. Their role will be to provide CAP for landings freeing the 3 CVs for other duties.

KenchiSulla -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/10/2012 10:40:50 AM)
You were flying your army fighters at extreme range. That made that part of your plan ineffective. Coordinating land and navy is quite hard..

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/11/2012 3:25:43 PM)
Well, I think the thunderstorms over both Suva and the TF they were set to LRCAP would have more to do with it then navy/army miscommunication? I have been very succesfull LRCAPing TFs with army fighters before!

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 6:16:35 AM)
So, time for a big update and a plea for help! After things settled down we had a second CV battle in which Erik managed to get a 7 hex strike in. Not the best news for me obviously and I find myself now without much of a Navy for 12-18 months... I´m not going to put the details down since I´m trying very hard to forget it ever happend! [:D] After the initial SCLS had settled I now have spent two days trying to find some options on what to do in 43. I actually offered Erik my surrender as I feel we might be in for a 9-12 month real life snorefest where he sits and wait for me to come to him and I sit and wait for stuff to do stuff with. He thinks we could still have a fun 43 but I´m not so sure. I´m even less sure after spending two days looking at the map. But I owe it to him to atleast try and find some motivation and get something going. So here is the situation front by front: China: Ceasefire in effect. No supply whatsover so I´m not going to break it. India/Burma Erik mentioned he thinks my "growing army and airforce" can do something here. I strongly disagree but perhaps I´m wrong? Here is the situation: [image]http://i45.tinypic.com/34hvrzl.jpg[/image] Air On first glance it might look like I´m in a pretty good situation here but I´m not. 175 of thoose fighters are the craptastic P40. 75 of the K variant and 100 of the E one. I have learned to hate this airframe with a passion. I have about 80 E´s left in the pool and I´m going to save them for dying on escort duty. I had some hopes for the K variant and they do alright on CAP but even stuffed with some very high EXP pilot the suffer about 1-10 losses on offensive missions against the Tojo. I have 50 P38s here and they did very well early on until the Tojo arrived. They still come out on top with about 1.5 in KDR but thats not sustainable with only 20 per month arriving and only 40 of varying variants in the pool. The british are stuck on CAP since pools are really low with about 40 B´s and C´s left. They do quite good on CAP but suffer on the offensive. My bombers have worked wonders when used. Especially the Marauders and I have a good pool of both them and the Blenheims/wellingtons. What I lack is targets. The oil in Magwe is pretty much bombed out and down to 26. There is no way I can close down 5 big airfields at once and I can´t really catch his fighters on the ground. So I´m out of ideas on what to do with them. At the moment I have had to withdraw my airforce to Bombay since I could not sustain the losses his 100+ Tojo sweeps were causing. Even on defensive I get only about .5 in KDR. Pilots ARE good in the K squadrons with an avrage of 65Exp 70 air and 60 DEF. Still no luck. I have deliberatly stuffed the E squadrons with fresh pilots 50/70/60. The only good news is my Army pilot pool. I have about 1000(!) trained fighter pilots in the pool. 800 of thoose are 50/70/50 pilots and almost 200 are very high EXP pilots with 70+ EXP. I don´t want to waste thoose in the crappy P40 and are going to save them for better airframes. The british fighterpool is low on numbers (150) and as mentioned before I´m really short on airframes. Erik as opted for the Tojo and is producing this is large quantaties. We have had some big airbattles with 100+ airframes lost in a day but he quickly returns. Since I withdrew to Bombay it has been quiet. Land I´m strong enough in India that he certainly have no chance to do anything here. I probably could do some damage in Northern Burma. I have about 4000 unrestriced AV in place but I fear supply would ruin any adventure here. In the monsoons I really struggled to get enought supply to Kalemyo so I fear getting any supply to Katha/Myityina would be even harder. I don´t think there is any chance of getting to Rangoon and even if I did he could probably close the sealanes without much effort. As I see it I can´t really do much here atm. "My growing airforce" is non existant since nothing happens in 43 until July when I start to get both a better number of fighters including the Thunderbolt! Am I being pesimistic here? Can something be achived?

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 7:23:24 AM)
SoPac/Pac No need to post a map here I think. I have a fortress in Suva and the line island except Baker. All else is in Jap hands. I don´t think he could take Suva even if he tried with everything he has available. 4000 AV, level 7 forts, 600.000 supply and 200 Fighters would make it a formidable obsticle. I´m 99% sure he won´t go there since he has no reason to do so whatsoever. I have a small hold in Tanna in the New Hebrides. Thats where I lost my Navy. So that small hold is going to get wiped out pretty soon and I´m stuck back on Suva. I don´t think I will be able to do anything here for atleast 12-18 months. I can perhaps do small invasions of dot islands now and then in the Sopac but I don´t think it will be much use since he can easily either starve whatever troops I get ashore or counterinvade. KB is based at Tulagi so that gives me only one day to get in and then get out. I had high hopes of starting to attrit him here but to do that I need to get closer which I really can´t anymore. I might be able to do some invasions in the Centpac. Mainly Baker/Canton for starters but he is still only 2 days away with the KB and can easily grab thoose back or isolate them. Anything into the Marshalls or Gilberts I think will be impossible without Carrier protection? Northen OZ [image]http://i47.tinypic.com/4mhqf.jpg[/image] Situation is pretty clear I think. Not much have happend here latly. He tried to grab Perth about 6 months back but was a bit too slow and I managed to get 3 divisions into place. I probably could retake Carnavon by land but I hesitate to. First off I don´t really need it. He has about 18.000 troops there and I rather have them there then anyplace else. The rest of the northen bases I can´t do anything about. I have been thinking of trying to retake Darwin but I fear the supply situation. If I manged to take it back it would have to be supplied by land/air. Not sure thats doable? I think he has a divison here. I could probably free up about 4 division for the task but again...supply? NoPac [image]http://i45.tinypic.com/3322txv.jpg[/image] I have forces prepped for Dutch Harbour and Cold bay. At the moment this is a backwater. He probably wouldn´t move the KB up here but he can probably get alot of aircraft up here in really short time from the HI. So this again would be sort of a "hit and run" action since I can´t protect the invasion. So, thats basically the situation. Am I too pesimistic about a 43 without a navy to speak of? There are some positive things: This is scenario 1 so he doesn´t have unlimited resources like the scenario 2. I have unlimited supply/fuel! [:D] I have a good pool of navy fighters. I have a exellent pool of army pilots. I have not suffered any significant losses in transports. I have some fantastic P39(!) squadrons in the Sopac area. 80+ EXP. My landforces is in exellent shape and nearly unused. They are upgraded and ready to go. As I said in my first post I have to try and find some motivation from somewhere. The prospect of doing absolutly nothing for another year is probably the real motivation killer. I fear we will end up in a situation where Erik won´t do anything simply because he doesn´t need to. He has reached the end of his offensive time. He can take some islands at will for sure but nothing that would gain him something. India and Oz are 100% secure of that I´m certain. He can try for Suva but he has absolutly no reason to do that. It would only cost him needlessly. I´m fairly certain he wouldn´t succeed anyway. I on the other hand want to do stuff but lack the assets to do it. As I see it I might be able to start again in the Sopac/centpac area in late 43/early 44. I then should have sufficiant carriers online again to sustain and protect a landing. In Burma I might get started a little bit earlier when I really get a good bump in airframe production in July when I start getting about 150 armyfighters per month of which 56 is P-47s. I do start getting alot of navy fighters in April with the Hellcat coming online. I won´t have any operational carriers except the Essex by then so I can devote them to other duties. But using them against the Tojos in Burma "feels" wrong and also probably isn´t a very good idea looking at the stats. Can I do anything to prevent this game to turn into "click end turn until christmas"? I might be too pesimistic here and there are some good opportunities that I´m missing? Any help or suggestions would be very welcome. Erik is a fantastic player and alot better then me. I´m too sloppy and impulsive. So I really need some help here.

ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 1:10:35 PM)
Joc, I posted some of my concerns about your use of CVs and not bombing his two bases on New Caledonia with 4e bombers on Obvert's AAR. We can review those later when you have more CVs. [:D] India/Burma - Before we installed the three Pwhex files to impose stacking limits, my Allied opponent was in a similar situation. I was all the way up to Dacca, but he was able to come back and push me out of Chittagong by using two large stacks with massive number of AA units in them. Anything below 10k was getting killed in huge numbers. You can do the same. The Japanese Tank Divisions got mauled by the Allied armor. [:(] You need to move two Command HQs down to Imphal and Cox's Bazar/Akyab and prep them for a base in Burma. They add 90% to your adjusted AV strength. The Allies have plenty of Command HQs to be used this way vs Japan. Next, you will need to focus on building up bases. I would suggest that at least 6 to 8 SB (SeaBees) be sent to India. You should be getting those large USN Naval Construction Rgt (54 Engineers and 24 Engineer Vehicles = 174 Engineers). They will be important everywhere while you get ready for the big push later. 3 to 4 of these need to go to India, IMO. Expand those bases to max and that includes forts after the AF are maxed out to draw in more supply. Swebo would be high on my list and my armor would head there with lots of AA. He cannot stop you in open terrain. Australia - The key to getting to Darwin overland is by building up Tennant Creeks AF and then forts to get a larger pull of supplies. again, building up bases is the key and those SB and Naval construction Rgt are very helpful. AA and Aussie armor are to lead the way with some of those Cav Bde. Alice spring should be maxed out and another Command HQ placed there to pull in another 25k in supply. No Pacific - You have some dot bases near Kodiak that can be built up to size 7 AF. Start with some push back here, if nothing else, it will give you a cushion around Kodiak. CVE/CVLs - they are not heavy CVs, but you may need to use them mainly as floating fighter bases to cover 'quick' invasions. Small lightly held bases can be invaded using massive numbers of transports to have them unload in a day and be gone. Read Alfred's posting on Cribtop's AAR about invading atolls. Add in your APDs, I hope you still have. B-17/24 - you got to use them in mass. I would have closed down Koumac from Australia and Noumea from Suva before going for Tanna. The second generation B-24s come out in numbers in 2/43. They can hit and run a large number of bases that are important to him, if you use them in large numbers. Time for the Army to carry the ball until the Navy can rebuild. Chin up!! [:D]

Historiker -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 1:24:38 PM)
quote: My bombers have worked wonders when used. Especially the Marauders and I have a good pool of both them and the Blenheims/wellingtons. What I lack is targets. The oil in Magwe is pretty much bombed out and down to 26. There is no way I can close down 5 big airfields at once and I can´t really catch his fighters on the ground. So I´m out of ideas on what to do with them. That sounds like it is timblerigger time! You hit another airfield each day, but sometimes two in a row. When you include the 4Es, you should be able to trash the airfields faster then he can repair them, don't forget how weak Japanese engineering is! Take the initiative!

Historiker -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 1:29:10 PM)
quote: Situation is pretty clear I think. Not much have happend here latly. He tried to grab Perth about 6 months back but was a bit too slow and I managed to get 3 divisions into place. I probably could retake Carnavon by land but I hesitate to. First off I don´t really need it. He has about 18.000 troops there and I rather have them there then anyplace else. The rest of the northen bases I can´t do anything about. I have been thinking of trying to retake Darwin but I fear the supply situation. If I manged to take it back it would have to be supplied by land/air. Not sure thats doable? I think he has a divison here. I could probably free up about 4 division for the task but again...supply? If you have enough to prevent a counterlanding in your back, why don't you circle around Australia? The bases are quite close to each other and you can do most of your invasions without any CV cover. That is what you should seek now. "Where can I hit him without CVs?" That should leave plenty of options, from W Asutralia to Port Moresby, from the Aleutians to Burma. All you have to know where the KB is. If it ventueres somewhere, your prepared invasion forces start and use the time he takes to move the KB. If he does, the next invasion happens on another part of the map. So he'll either have to react with limited effectiveness on you, or he divides his carriers to defend everywhere. In this case, you've hit the Jackpot!

Historiker -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 1:32:12 PM)
quote: I have forces prepped for Dutch Harbour and Cold bay. At the moment this is a backwater. He probably wouldn´t move the KB up here but he can probably get alot of aircraft up here in really short time from the HI. So this again would be sort of a "hit and run" action since I can´t protect the invasion. What about that dot base NE of Cold Bay? Develope it and draw his strikes. If he commits enough forces to keep you in line - it is fine as his forces can't be anywhere else. If he doesn't, you advance to the next base under LBA cover. With enough 4Es, you can close every airfield in effctive striking range. So where you have open airfields, you have a decent chance the he soon doesn't have open airfields any more...

Historiker -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 1:33:27 PM)
double posting

SqzMyLemon -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 5:00:06 PM)
Hi Jocke, I'm in a very similiar situation as you in my PBEM as the Allies in June/42. I'm going to lose China by the fall of 42, the Aleutians are under Japanese control with the exception of Dutch Harbor. New Caledonia, Fiji and many of the Southeast Pacific bases are Japanese held. An invasion of New Zealand seems imminent. Unlike you though, I've had no major fleet actions yet and my navy is largely intact. I know it seems overwhelming and where do you start? Think of it in terms of building a puzzle, a big puzzle of 5000 pieces say. At first, you look at those pieces and think you'll never get it done. Then you get some areas started and simply build from there. In this case, you already have some areas of the puzzle built, you just need to add to those areas and that will eventually lead to other areas of the "puzzle" you can then begin to fill in. As others have pointed out, you can build up the dot bases near Kodiak to begin putting pressure on his Aleutian holdings with your 4E's and fighters. Burma will be a grind, but you need to build up your logistics support. As you build up bases the supply flow and ability to stockpile will also improve. Yes, you have a lot of enemy airbases to suppress, but don't let that discourage you. As Historiker has pointed out, mix up your targets, don't try to take them all out at once. One or two at a time and the effect will graduallly take it's toll. Australia, again, build up your logistics to sustain your operations. Set yourself small goals to accomplish. Seems to me you build up and secure your positions at Perth and Geraldton and then set your sights on Carnarvon, then Exmouth. Build up your airbases then you can start hitting Port Hedland, Broome and Derby. Build up Alice Springs, Tennant Creek and then start putting pressure on Daly Waters. Applying constant pressure in a way you can sustain is the key here until you recover and can make a big push. It's not glamorous or a quick fix, but hitting and grinding down Japan's ability for sustained operations will pay divends later. Take the time to pound those airfields into rubble, as others have suggested, not doing so in your recent operations around New Caledonia proved problematic, to say the least. These are just three areas of the puzzle you've already built up, now you simply expand them and keep adding pieces. These areas don't require you to risk a single ship. Set up your LBA and then your naval units can operate under your own LBA umbrella. It's not exciting, or what you may have hoped for, but it is something to build on until your fleet recovers. Don't let the entire situation overwhelm you, pick your battles. Look for the easy pieces to add to the puzzle, that will allow more opportunities to open up for you, then you can tackle the tougher areas of the "puzzle" so to speak. I hope you don't mind the puzzle analogy, but I find for myself it really does work. It's easy to feel things are unmanagable at this stage, but one step at a time, or one puzzle piece at a time. A little effort and preparation on your part and before you know it, the final few pieces will fall into place and you've finished the puzzle. [8D] My AAR was literally years of no action, so I understand your concerns about the fun factor. It's still there, you just have to switch gears. Building up logistics for that eventual big push or trashing every airfield in sight can be fun too, if you keep the overall goal in mind. You may have come out short recently, but I envy the action in your game and the fact you came out swinging. More experience will only make you that much better in the future. Keep it up, you'll recover from this last set back and get more chances to take it to Japan on your terms.

khyberbill -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/29/2012 6:26:51 PM)
quote: So, time for a big update and a plea for help! You have been given a lot of good advice. Develop a plan and start executing it. This game is extremely winnable. Starting at some point in mid-43 you get a CV/CVL/CVE almost every day. Plan now what you are going to do with them. For instance, B-25C's can strike Darwin (port strikes will usually catch a few surprised ships) from Tenant Creek. And maul any infantry on the ground between those two points. Good luck and keep swinging.

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/30/2012 7:51:07 AM)
Thank you all for taking the time to respond! I really appriciate it! [:)] Michael, You are absolutly right about not closing the Airfields. I as usual got impatiant. I had tried to close them down for 3 weeks but weather was preventing this. So I decided to go for it anyway. Next time I will not be so impacient! Lesson learned the brutal way... [X(] My plan was originally to skip Burma and flank it throught the Adamans. Obviosuly thats not going to happen anymore! I´ve started to shift my forces around to concentrate my unrestricted troops for a push towards Katha and Myitkyina. I´ve also decided to try and push for Darwin! Will post some maps later today! I´ve actually started building up all bases in India and Oz a long time ago. Only Tennant Creek is a bit behind. But I´m sending about 15 engineer units there now! I´m going to follow your advice in the NoPac but it will take some time to shift lift capacity there. There is a dot base 4 hexes from Cold Bay that is still in my hands. Will try and sneak in some engineers there are start building up the forts first of all. Tosten, I hear you! Problem is that my escorts get chewed up in each strike! I loose about 20-30 P40s each time I hit the oilfields. I can´t really afford that right now. His Tojos are really nasty and he has lots and lots of them. Thats what I meant about not being able to close them all! I actually have two divisions prepped for PM. But the 8 hex range only the P38 can reach and I only have 2 squadrons of them and not the best pools. I could at the very best put 75 P-38s over PM for 2 days before fatigue would be in the 40-50s. I don´t think that would be enough? Remember that the KB is only a day away. I´m also quite short on 4Es atm. Erik seem to think the are invincible but eventhough most get home many of the damaged ones are written off. I have a almost empty group in Oz waiting for planes... Joseph, I think you are absolutly right that I have to start applying pressure on him. I had hopes to be able to do that in the SoPac and Burma! SoPac is no longer an option so I guess we will have to go for Burma and Oz then. As I mentioned earlier I actually already build up all bases in Oz and India which is a blessing right now! I´m trying to find motivation in the small things right now but its hard... But Erik deserves me doing my best so I´ll try my best! [:)] I don't mind the puzzle analogy at all! I think its a good one! [:)] A lot of the future strategy will depend on what he does in the Hebrides. I´m 95% sure he will counterinvade Tanna. But he mentioned how trashed his troops on Anatom got when I hit with all I had at Suva so he might be reluctant to expose more troops to my bombers. 100 4Es and 100 2Es can strike Tanna at will. So he needs to park the KB there to protect them. Last time he did he lost alot of fighters for almost no damage to my planes. If he starts pulling out I can try and start grinding my way base by base. Going to tack a looong time. But if he is staying I´m going to move everything at Suva to somewhere else. Probably India! Another question while I´m at it. Should I buy back some of the airgroups from my sunk carriers? They are really expensive but in April I start getting alot of airframes but no groups to fill them with. If I do, will the DB groups scheduled for withdrawal still be? Again, thank you all for the encouragement and help! Really happy to have it! [:)] Will post some maps later on my plans for India/Oz. Would love to get some input on that! Jocke

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/30/2012 8:47:16 AM)
Here is the situation and plan for Burma. Supply and bases [image]http://i45.tinypic.com/34iheeu.jpg[/image] The plan I´m currently shifting forces around to concentrate in Kalemyo. I hope I will be able to pull enough supply there to sustain combat and move overland to Katha. The main goal of the operation will be to take Katha and test how much supply I can pull. There is a nice level 4 airfield there which will hopefully help with the pull. If supplies flow I will move on to Myitkyina. If things still look favourable after that I will move think about moving south! But thats far, far ahead! I should be able to start moving in about 4-5 weeks. OOB: Eastern army HQ is prepping for Katha and India Command for Myitkyina. Two Indian Corps HQs will move with the troops to Katha. The assault will be spearheaded by 18th Brit ID, 6th Aus ID, 27th US ID and 41st US ID. The 17th and 23rd Indian divsion will be in reserve. The 23rd Indian ID is still restricted but I have the PP to buy it out if needed. The attack will also be supported by 3 armoured brigades, 2 infantry brigades and two small chinese Corps. About all the available AA in India and all engineers I can spare. I will go a bit light on baseforces to begin with but 150 aviation support will follow the combat troops. I have around 120 Transports ready to airlift supplies if needed. All in all it should be around 2000 AV not counting the reserves. Will this be enough? Erik will see this coming from half across the globe as he has lots of recon in place. My airforce is listed in earlier posts. I don´t know much about what he has in place. But a guess would be 3-4 IDs? There is 30k troops in Mandalay. and between 2000-5000 in each base. I havn´t been able to recon Rangoon for quite some time. Going to give a go again! I can probably scrape toghether another 1000 unrestricted AV but that would leave Akyab, Cox and Chittagong a little bit too light to be confortable! This will be my first offensive in a PBEM...well ever. So if I´m doing something really stupid here let me know!

Historiker -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/30/2012 8:52:42 AM)
quote: I hear you! Problem is that my escorts get chewed up in each strike! I loose about 20-30 P40s each time I hit the oilfields. I can´t really afford that right now. His Tojos are really nasty and he has lots and lots of them. Thats what I meant about not being able to close them all! That's why you don't start your suppression campaign with Magwe! [;)] The other hexes are maybe LR-CAPing Magwe, they may draw some fighters for an intercept or they aren't protected. All is fine, because each tim, you take out an airfield which can't use for timblerigging any more. You go after the airfields, not after the planes! The planes will come as a byproduct, but right now, you don't care whether he has 5.000 fighters - if they are far away! PM: You don't go for PM as long as you don't know the KB is far, far away, of course!

ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/30/2012 12:51:25 PM)
quote: I´m going to follow your advice in the NoPac but it will take some time to shift lift capacity there. There is a dot base 4 hexes from Cold Bay that is still in my hands. Will try and sneak in some engineers there are start building up the forts first of all. If your referring to Port Heiden, then you may have to cancel that operation. It is accessible only from the north side of the peninsula from the sea, so no shipping is going to get there. Focus on two of three dot bases SW of Kodiak instead. quote: Another question while I´m at it. Should I buy back some of the airgroups from my sunk carriers? They are really expensive but in April I start getting alot of airframes but no groups to fill them with. If I do, will the DB groups scheduled for withdrawal still be? Buy back your fighter groups first. Don't buy back the ones that are to be withdrawn. What is the cost per group??

JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/30/2012 6:44:49 PM)
Ouch, good thing you told me! Had no clue! Might be worth trying to airlift something in later on though. Will start with the bases closer to Kodiak first. The groups cost 180 PP for the 36 plane fightergroups and 90 for the the DB/TBs. So its a hefty price...but it might be worth it when I get the 130 Hellcats per months. But I don´t know how much good the Hellcat is against land based fighter like the Tojo? The stats are quite even. But I have an exellent pool of pilots and 130 planes per months is ALOT. Thoughts?

Historiker -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (6/30/2012 6:53:50 PM)
do it!

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