RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (Full Version)

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Commander Stormwolf -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/27/2012 10:46:29 PM)


interesting



Grunt -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/27/2012 11:38:45 PM)

It seems to me that the South has a strong military tradition too. Canoerebel mentioned several prominent men. I served in the Marines and noticed that many of the best Marines were from the south. And why is it that the Drill Instructors all seem to come from the South? Nothing strikes fear in the heart like that gravelly southern drawl from the pits of hell.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 6:21:14 AM)

Amazing lack of elevation change at Chickamauga....and lots of trees.

Can you imagine being on the flank of a brigade advancing through the woods not really knowing if the enemy is going to pop up behind you. I doubt either side really had decent maps.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 6:27:48 AM)

I've only been to Gettysburg. What are the best preserved sites?



USSAmerica -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 1:40:09 PM)

I'm a huge fan of the Shiloh battlefield.



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 2:11:05 PM)

Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.



Empire101 -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 3:28:08 PM)

This has been a fascinating thread to read for someone 'over the pond'.
I particularly enjoyed reading Canoerebels 'There are regional differences....' thread.

Thanks for sharing the photos.



Kwik E Mart -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 6:25:30 PM)

slightly OT, sorry...those interested in the regional differences in the U.S. might consider Joel Garreau's 1981 book The Nine Nations of North America...i know it was written a while back, but the theory he puts forward still resonate for me...he names the southeast quarter of the U.S., centered on Atlanta, GA (excluding the very southern section of Florida) as "Dixie"...IIRC, he attributes the South's propensity to be quick to fight (e.g., American Revolution, Mexican American War, War of 1812, etc) to the preponderance of Irish and Scottish immigrants to the region (mostly along the Appalachians)...we Americans sometimes refer to them as "Scotch-Irish"...i know my grandmother (born and raised in West Tennessee) often referred to her heritage as "Scotch-Irish"...



Nikademus -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 6:41:18 PM)

alot of that is based on the industry. The southern area of the country was more about agriculture and looked "inward" continentally whereas the NorthEast was more trade based and manufacturing. Hence during the War of 1812, there was a near succession of NE because the naval blockade was hurting business bad. So the NE area of the young country was Sea-focused not continental focused.




Kwik E Mart -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 6:50:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

alot of that is based on the industry. The southern area of the country was more about agriculture and looked "inward" continentally whereas the NorthEast was more trade based and manufacturing. Hence during the War of 1812, there was a near succession of NE because the naval blockade was hurting business bad. So the NE area of the young country was Sea-focused not continental focused.




...industry, resources, climate...all factors in shaping regional characteristics...



mdiehl -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 8:49:32 PM)

quote:

to the preponderance of Irish and Scottish immigrants


Or to their distilled beverages. [;)]

After all, Tennessee and Kentucky are famous for their libations.

Maine... well... we have lobster.

No one will ever want distilled lobster mash.



JWE -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 9:44:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
alot of that is based on the industry. The southern area of the country was more about agriculture and looked "inward" continentally whereas the NorthEast was more trade based and manufacturing. Hence during the War of 1812, there was a near succession of NE because the naval blockade was hurting business bad. So the NE area of the young country was Sea-focused not continental focused.

...industry, resources, climate...all factors in shaping regional characteristics...

More than you know, Mr Nik.

Yeah, I have Grady/McWhiney, and read all about the Celt assault. Ehhh, ok, I guess. Nothing that any trained Confederate officer was thinking of when it was time to do the deed.

I mean, shoot, there ws a gazillion Celts from Ireland sailing into NY every single day, and they all got conscripted, and the Union Army should have had a surfiet of angry Celts just looking to whack some Southrons so they could go about their business.

Dude, it was simply big vs small. Metal vs flesh. I understand completely there was spots in Europe where little places could survive by being growly. But not in America. This was an historical conquest of a region where there were absolutely no other interests involved. The biggest Dick, wins. And they didn't care how long or how many deaths it took.

If you really know anything about the Civil War, you know that Grady/McWhiney were only analyzing certain tactical factors; NOTHING to do with reasons or rationale.

Not hassling you Nik, just preempting some asshole from Doggieville who wants to pretend he knows something.

Ciao. John



treespider -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 9:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.


Gettysburg... been there sevral times, done that
Sharpsburg (Antietam)...Been there couple of times, done that.
Chickamauga ... need to include Lookout Mountain and Chattanooga... been there several times, done that.
Shiloh... haven't made it to south central west TN ...yet.
Bull Run ( Manassas 1 & 2) ... been there several times, done that.
Appomattox Courthouse...not yet.

Need to throw in ...

Chancellorsville ( and later the Wilderness) ... been there, done that.
Fredericksburg... been there, done that.
Murfreesboro (Stones River) ... been there, done that

Some lesser known sites ...
Knoxville, TN --- city now built up over much of the siege sites...although they do have a park on the south side of the river.
New Market, VA --- located just off of I-81
Droop Mountain, WV
Kennesaw Mountain, GA
Cedar Creek, VA




Nikademus -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 10:04:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


If you really know anything about the Civil War, you know that Grady/McWhiney were only analyzing certain tactical factors; NOTHING to do with reasons or rationale.

Ciao. John


No problem John. I used to know something about the Civil War as I was a bit of a buff when i was a teen, but i havn't seriously studied it since those days. I know the highlights but not alot else. Someone wants to lord it over me........more power. I have a friend who's CW nut and dresses in confed outfits. He was telling me the other day how if only for one charge at Gettysburg D.C. would have fallen and the South would have won the war. I just smiled and nodded and didn't try poking any holes. It would only have upset him.

I was just responding to the regional thing as i've been studying the 1812 war of recent and there was distinctive difference in outlook and focus between the Northern, esp NE states (Maine - New York esp) and the southern states of the original 13 Colonies based on Seaward vs. Continental viewpoints, driven by economics.

War is NOT always good for business as the 1812 conflict showed.

Someday i might read up a little on the CW.......so many subjects so little time on this Earth.



JWE -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 10:21:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.

Well, I am a Southron, and I do believe Bobby Lee sitteth foremost in the pantheon at the right hand of Joshus, Sword of the Lord, and Scourge of the Unrighteous. But as an historian, I gotta say, we ate doo doo.

We won Battles up the wazoo. There was 7-Days, 2nd Mannassas, Fredricksburg, Chancelorsville, Murfeesboro (c.f.), Chicamauga, you frikkin name it it, but it didn't mean nothing. There was nothing we could do but push the Union troops back to someplace they could regroup, recruit and reorganize and come back for more. Lee and Jackson tried, and tried, and tried, but just couldn't kill the beast. Once we was there, it was just a matter of time. Lee knew this.

So the interesting parts of this conflict (if any part of it could ever be called interesting) is those little things called "engagements" in the ORs. That's where you, as a military historian, will find those personal accounts as to how a single Division, with 2766 total troops fought off 2 Union Corps with 11,982 troops, so very informative.

Read. Learn. Read more. Learn more. Your heritage is captured in your history. The more you know of it, the more complete a person you will be. Ciao. John



LST Express -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/28/2012 11:46:43 PM)

Cap Mandrake as a Sawbones you might enjoy the Museum of Civil War Medicine at Frederick Md if you haven't already.  Besides some of the ones already mentioned I enjoyed Fort Sumter, Harpers Ferry and Vicksburg. Lookout Mountain as already mentioned gives a nice view of the terrain in the Chattanooga area.



Alfred -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/29/2012 12:57:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.

Well, I am a Southron, and I do believe Bobby Lee sitteth foremost in the pantheon at the right hand of Joshus, Sword of the Lord, and Scourge of the Unrighteous. But as an historian, I gotta say, we ate doo doo.

We won Battles up the wazoo. There was 7-Days, 2nd Mannassas, Fredricksburg, Chancelorsville, Murfeesboro (c.f.), Chicamauga, you frikkin name it it, but it didn't mean nothing. There was nothing we could do but push the Union troops back to someplace they could regroup, recruit and reorganize and come back for more. Lee and Jackson tried, and tried, and tried, but just couldn't kill the beast. Once we was there, it was just a matter of time. Lee knew this.

So the interesting parts of this conflict (if any part of it could ever be called interesting) is those little things called "engagements" in the ORs. That's where you, as a military historian, will find those personal accounts as to how a single Division, with 2766 total troops fought off 2 Union Corps with 11,982 troops, so very informative.

Read. Learn. Read more. Learn more. Your heritage is captured in your history. The more you know of it, the more complete a person you will be. Ciao. John


This describes a situation where one side never came up with a potentially winning strategy and the other side, once Grant was appointed to command over in the east, did come up with a war winning strategy.

Ultimately to win a war one has to destroy the enemy's will to resist. Winning battles might work against weak willed opponents but against leaders of the calibre of Lincoln who retained the confidence of his electorate, they just don't lose heart over tactical defeats.

The only potential winning strategy I can see for the south was to get the Europeans involved. Not an easy task in itself, quite possibly an impossible one. Still potentially the intervention north of the Rio Grande of the large and experienced French army (assuming Maximilian could do without them[8|]) would have helped stretch Union resources but the real aid would have been a British naval blockade to disrupt northern trade and as a byproduct undermine popular support for the war.

Alfred



Lecivius -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/29/2012 6:02:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunt

It seems to me that the South has a strong military tradition too. Canoerebel mentioned several prominent men. I served in the Marines and noticed that many of the best Marines were from the south. And why is it that the Drill Instructors all seem to come from the South? Nothing strikes fear in the heart like that gravelly southern drawl from the pits of hell.


I dunno. I can remember my CPO just LOOK at someone and cause heart failure. And he was from the midwest [:D]



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/29/2012 7:49:57 PM)

On September 20, 1863, York's Georgia Battery supported Longstreet's breakout through the center of the Union lines at the Battle of Chickamauga. The battery of four guns advanced with the gray infantry as it pursued shattered elements of the federal army and then fought off attacks against its own flank. One gun of the battery was detailed to occupy a small knoll to interdict enemy artillery retiring towadrs McFarland Gap and Chattanooga.

The monument to York's Georgia Battery has always fascinated me for reasons I can't really put my finger on. After escorting visitors to the site earlier this week, I wrote this brief verse:

York's Georgia Battery 1 Gun


Smoke and thunder
wreath the bronze
hilltop sentinel
York's single gun

Crouched to fire
against the foe
whose broken ranks
seek the sun

[image]local://upfiles/8143/F7B2A67C2F08484FBCA0D5FD455E9B37.jpg[/image]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 1:07:38 AM)

I like the poem. Thought it was going to be a Haiku for a sec.

I think that is a 12 lb Nap and it looks to be Union manufacture, though the CSA would have had many captured Uinon guns by '63.


In any event it would not seem the best piece for long range interdiction.



The single gun is poignant.



JWE -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 1:46:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
This describes a situation where one side never came up with a potentially winning strategy and the other side, once Grant was appointed to command over in the east, did come up with a war winning strategy.

....

Alfred

I am sure you are right, but something about CR's Civil War posts move me profoundly. I guess I'm just a sucker for 'lost batallions', 'forlorn hopes', and 'lost causes'. You know, those little things that ARE the curriculum at USMAWP.

Keep bringing it Canoerebel. I love it.

John



topeverest -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 2:55:33 AM)

despite reading several, I never really found what I thought was a definitive Coddington style "Gettysburg Campaign" study of the battle of Chickamauga. What does everyone think is the best available work on the battle? I also live about 75 miles from the battlefield and have visited more than my share of times, given my deference to the American Civil War. I am impressed how well the field is preserved. It is a must visit, along with lookout mountain.




Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 3:00:48 AM)

That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 



topeverest -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 3:11:06 AM)

I must ask...and what is the best?



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 3:39:40 AM)

We were Soldiers Once...and Young, by Hal Moore and Joe Galloway.

I am not a big Vietnam War buff, so this book really had to take me by the short hairs and yank in order for me to give such effusive praise. I simply don't think it would be possible to write a better work of non-fiction. To have the commanding officer of the force surrounded deep in enemy territory, to have him interview so many of his men, to have him dig through the records, to have him interview some of the enemy commanders, and to cap it off by interviewing family of some of his men who fell on that battlefield. Well, how could you top that?



CRations -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 4:48:28 AM)

I never read the book but I enjoyed the movie. In the movie there are the cut scenes where the wife hand delivers the "We regret to inform you" telegrams from the western Union.

I include that movie in my top-10 list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Were_Soldiers


CR



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 4:51:29 PM)

I hope you won't consider me contrarian or disagreeable in saying that I really don't like that movie.  The book is sublime; the movie...I give it very low marks.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 5:10:40 PM)

I felt the same way about Killer Angels and visiting Gettysburg.



Wirraway_Ace -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 5:40:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


This describes a situation where one side never came up with a potentially winning strategy and the other side, once Grant was appointed to command over in the east, did come up with a war winning strategy.

Ultimately to win a war one has to destroy the enemy's will to resist. Winning battles might work against weak willed opponents but against leaders of the calibre of Lincoln who retained the confidence of his electorate, they just don't lose heart over tactical defeats.

The only potential winning strategy I can see for the south was to get the Europeans involved. Not an easy task in itself, quite possibly an impossible one. Still potentially the intervention north of the Rio Grande of the large and experienced French army (assuming Maximilian could do without them[8|]) would have helped stretch Union resources but the real aid would have been a British naval blockade to disrupt northern trade and as a byproduct undermine popular support for the war.

Alfred

Alfred,

I would suggest that the Southern leadership clearly understood that the key to eventual victory, if the Northerners could not be caused to lose the will to fight due chronic defeats on the battlefield, was intervention from Europe. The lesson of the Revolution. They tried to bring this about through diplomacy and the economics of the cotton trade, but understood (or came to) that no European power was going to openly support a nation-state that appeared to be fighting to defend "that peculiar institution". And all the actionis you cite that were significant enough to possibly tip the balance were open support. Like Japan of the 40's, they were not willing (or able) to change the nature of their society and its goals in order to change the strategic calculus.

Victory on the battlefield until Lincoln had to face election again in 1964 was not an unreasonable gambit, since there were no others....

Mike



Wirraway_Ace -> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn (6/30/2012 5:42:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 


i happen to like Chickamauga by Tucker too.



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