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Nikademus -> (12/7/2002 2:14:24 PM)
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/19/42
Weather: Partly Cloudy
Air attack on Port Moresby , at 10,40
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 7
no losses
Runway hits 2
Attacking Level Bombers:
7 x G4M1 Betty at 6000 feet
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Sub attack at 20,27
Japanese Ships
MSW Seki Maru #3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Allied Ships
SS S-44
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Air attack on TF at 13,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 59
Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 3
Wirraway x 5
P-39D Airacobra x 8
B-26B Marauder x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 8 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 3 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 1 damaged
Wirraway x 1 destroyed
Wirraway x 3 damaged
P-39D Airacobra x 2 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra x 3 damaged
B-26B Marauder x 5 destroyed
B-26B Marauder x 2 damaged
FO J. Jacobs of 35th FS is credited with kill number 4
LT M. Sato of AII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CA Ashigara
DD Shirakumo
Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
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Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 10,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
A6M3 Zero x 14
G3M Nell x 3
G4M1 Betty x 9
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18
P-39D Airacobra x 20
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 6 destroyed
G3M Nell x 2 damaged
G4M1 Betty x 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 7 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 damaged
P-39D Airacobra x 3 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra x 3 damaged
LT S. Ruehlow of VF-8 is credited with kill number 3
LT J. Smith of VF-8 is KILLED
Allied Ships
DD Walke
AK Barwon
Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
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Air attack on TF at 9,49
Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 14
B5N Kate x 35
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 2 destroyed
D3A Val x 2 damaged
B5N Kate x 20 destroyed
B5N Kate x 13 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4 damaged
LTJG J. Kelley of VF-6 is credited with kill number 4
Allied Ships
CA Salt Lake City
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1
CL Nashville, Bomb hits 1
CA Vincennes
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Air attack on TF at 9,49
Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 16
B5N Kate x 17
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 2 destroyed
D3A Val x 3 damaged
B5N Kate x 9 destroyed
B5N Kate x 11 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged
LTJG M. Kleinmann of VF-6 is credited with kill number 5
LT T. Ichihara of EI-3 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED
Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA Indianapolis, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
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Air attack on TF at 9,44
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 42
D3A Val x 47
B5N Kate x 16
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 1 damaged
B5N Kate x 1 damaged
Allied Ships
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Grayson, Bomb hits 1, on fire
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Air attack on TF at 13,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 57
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 2 damaged
1LT U.Evans of 30th BS is credited with kill number 4
Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x B-17E Fortress at 16000 feet
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Air attack on TF at 9,49
Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 16
no losses
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Air attack on TF at 9,44
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
D3A Val x 55
B5N Kate x 5
no losses
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Sub attack near Shortland Island at 29,34
Japanese Ships
MSW Fumi Maru #2
Allied Ships
SS Argonaut
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Conclusion #1;
I just got my a$$ kicked
Conclusion #2;
I wont be sitting down for a week
Conclusion #3;
PBEM'ers all over the world are currently laughing at me
Conclusion #4;
use of entire 3-CV fighter wing on LRCAP was successful in defending an emergency supply run to Port Morosby (previous turn before last and last)
Conclusion #5;
Fighters on LRCAP cant be in 2 places at the same time....making carrier TF vulnerable to a reacting enemy CV force
Conclusion #6;
Jack Fletcher was a better carrier commander than me
Conclusion #7;
Matrix introduced a new HL....."Flight Deck" WHOO HOO! :)
Conclusion #8;
Having an intact one to launch some counter-attacks from would be nice.
Conclusion #9;
Air to air combat is SUPERB in 2.11....... change nothing except one thing. see below
Conclusion #10
Matrix Rocks! :)
Conclusion #11
After this preformance.....I think i'm ready for PBEM....look out Mogami, i'm coming to take your title away.
Conclusion #12
People already know my opinion vis-a-vis bomber defensive fire. Just thought i'd post this entire turn for the general amusement of all not to mention showing that once more, even a 3 B-17 element scored better than most fighter groups can hope too.....the B-26 Marauders also claimed kills higher than their number damaged or destroyed. Sigh....other than that....WHAT A GAME!!!!!! :)
I have read that Matrix is currently looking at Bomber defensive fire so to speak (i.e., looking at air combat some more) so further arguing is somewhat redundant at this point. However i still find the thread interesting and would just like to add a few more cents to things.
I feel that what distracts and complicates the argument is that too much attention is paid to the weapons and the planes themselves vs the more critical issue. To me, the issue is not the DUR of the B-17 or other Allied bombers or the lack thereof of the A6M, nor is it the fact that the A6M was a poor bomber interceptor given that it was built for an offensive posture vs a defensive one.
The central issue in my mind is that it is a difficult task for bomber gunners to hit fast moving and maneuvering fighter planes. Were this not the case, then the original proponents of Strategic Bombing would have been proven right when they boasted that heavily armed and armored long range bombers could strike at the heart of the enemy with impunity, with no need for fighters since (at the time) they were too short ranged to escort them anyway.
This gleefully optimistic appraisal of the what WWII air combat would be like was promptly turned on it's ear when it was attempted. It didnt happen in Europe, and as far as I can tell, it didn't happen in the Pacific either. The scale was different.....the combat environments were different, but not the basic rule of thumb that unescorted bombers are easy marks for fighters......"marks" defined as, the little hornets can shoot em up, if not necessarily shoot them down (such as when A6M's try to do in Allied four engine beasties with 7.7 ammo and limited 20mm)
Havn't read it from Japanese accounts which confirm the legendary DUR of the B-17 (far less so for the twin engined variety), but dont sweat their defensive fire.....and havn't read it from the Allied side which also appeared to fear little, bomber defensive fire. Even with their statistically impressive 20mm tail stingers, few if any F4F's or other Allied fighters surcombed to bomber defensive fighter during the Guadalcanal campaign. (I just read of a rare success last night.....A tail Stinger from an Emily shot down a pursuing SBD on inner air patrol...a rare occurance that....shooting down a pursuing or attacking single engined beastie)
It was just simply **** hard to hit a small darting target with a hand/shoulder mounted single barreled pea shooter.....all the more so when your heart's pumpin and the airframe's virbrating and its so noisy you cant hear yourself think. So the fact that the A6M was "fragile" is somewhat irrelevant if it's not being struck by all that metal that jazzed bomber crewman are indescrimitivly spraying about. The issue of the A6M's inability to knock down large #'s of heavy bombers manifiests itself quite well thanks to the ARMOR and DUR ratings of the big planes they are at times called upon to attack.
Not saying bomber def fire should be made totally ineffective, but it certainly needs some serious toning down as right now, as already said a hundred times, bomber D-fire is as effective if not more so than the escorting fighters themselves, making them unnecessary.......something that would make Gen Kenney's eyeballs bulge.
Whatever Matrix does I just hope they dont bring back the return of the shadow boxing fighters......that would only replace one problem with another. I like how in 2.11, unescorted bombers get spanked more regularily now, even if that spanking is just in the form of damaged planes.....because do it too much and coupled with operational losses you soon wont have much of a bomber force left from which to use against opportunities closer to home. Note too that a few good "damages" will also serve to increase disruption and help spoil aims. Thus in the end, even if the fighters cant do the most important job of knocking em down so that they cant return and attempt their deadly deeds again....they can at least contribute to protecting the assets and ships below by their efforts. Return the shadow boxing fighter syndrome and players will be able to continue to ignore CAP's and distances to attack valuable assets with impunity....and there are simply not enough AAA assets lying around to make up the difference.
Its just that pesky bomber D-fire........its like each bomber has Quick Draw Mcgraw in the waist or turret gunner position......
So my suggestion remains, leave the air model alone but slash the ACC of the defensive fire big time. Killing fighters is the job of escorting fighters, bomber defenisve fire is the emergency backup and morale booster. Let us see no more fighter sweeps using strategic bombers ;)
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